Zone1 Humanity and Jesus

[Meriweather]

should read the complete story

Starting with God is love. God is Good. That isn't even what he does, it is who he is. Next, if needed, read a good science book about natural disasters.

The part that is puzzling to me is when someone declares in one breath no belief in God and then the belief God is a homicidal maniac. When introduced to the philosophy that God is love and what he created is good, there is no interest at all--only a continued interest to pursue the idea of a homicidal maniac. I don't get it.

 

[zaangalewa]

frigidweirdo

Interesting in context of natural science and in context of this great flood story is for me something else. First: When someone was 600 years old in the bible or so then this seems to have to do something with older cultures and not with persons. It's very clear that many people died young and a normal lifespan was calculated with 80 years and the maximal lifespan was calculated with 120 years - what are also today very realistic values. But we know today that about 70,000 years ago had happened something what took care that all human beings today come from a population with less than 1000 individuals. So in the whole story is perhaps a kind of truth which we will perhaps find out one day in a much more concrete way as we think today about. I could imagine that this was a time when god had helped us a first time - and perhaps this was the point when we started to be religious at all. Perhaps had helped us spirituality to survive as human beings. Perhaps spirituality is our motor to survive at all since we left the natural process of biological evolution. If I am right then you are not only an enemy of Christians - you are perhaps also only a kind of suicidal enemy of all human life at all. Or with other words: Perhaps you are flood - while it could be indeed better to be ark? The flood will die - the ark will live.

 

[zaangalewa]

Starting with God is love. God is Good. That isn't even what he does, it is who he is. Next, if needed, read a good science book about natural disasters.

The part that is puzzling to me is when someone declares in one breath no belief in God and then the belief God is a homicidal maniac. When introduced to the philosophy that God is love and what he created is good, there is no interest at all--only a continued interest to pursue the idea of a homicidal maniac. I don't get it.

Oh by the way: Did you know that one very important characteristics of water in history is [in-]form[ation]less energy ... ah sorry ... is "water is formless matter". The expression "informationless energy" is an expression we could use today somehow in quantum physics. That's why the physicist Anton Zeilinger (well known because he "invented" quantum teleportation) said "In the beginning was the word" (word =~ information (physical information)). But in all cases it is always a problem when "formlessness" overfloods energy, matter or knowledge. We always needed, need and will need the help of the constructive Holy Spirit in many ways.

Happy Whitsun.

I'm by the way also very sure the authors and/or the author of the story around Noahs and his ark knew very well what they spoke about - independent from any form of "formlessness" (or lazyness) in our world now. The story around Noah's arch is very archetypical.

If you can't explain it to a six-year-old child, you haven't understood it at all.
Albert Einstein

 

[Meriweather]

The story around Noah's arch is very archetypical.

Archetypical meaning, representing or constituting an original type after which other similar things are patterned.

Just as there are many stories where the setting is war, there are many stories where the setting is the flood. The Great Flood is not the point of the story, it is the setting of the story.

It uses the usual elements, Good versus Evil. As God was seen as the epitome of Goodness and Love, he is appalled at the wickedness that was encroaching on a world and a people he made for goodness, to love and be loved. As you noted, water is formless, and in the beginning the world was formless. Water is also used in baptism. Water saved what was right; and from water/formlessness emerged what is good. I, too, agree that (other than baptism) early man accepted this as so obvious it didn't need explaining. Water washes.

Tragedy--then and now--has a way for awakening people to what they could have done better, where they went wrong. Sudden, unexpected death occurs to someone close, and we can't help but think of our relationship with that person, and all we did wrong. People who survived the flood were faced with all the wrong that had been going on, and how they did little (or nothing) to change this. We have a way of accepting and living with what we are emerged in. It is only later, when we emerge, do we see wickedness or uncleanness for what it was. Goodness is then--for a time--more clearly seen.

Getting back to the archetypical: Word/language has great power. Gossip, curses, schemes are all set in motion with words. A fascinating point in Noah's story is that before the flood, during the flood, and immediately after the flood, he never said a word. And we are told that Noah was righteous. A righteous man emerges to start over, but an archetypical man...the first words the author has Noah speaking was to curse one of his family. A curse that would result in wickedness once more taking root and growing in the world. Is our own speech patterned after Noah before the flood, or after the flood?

At a minimum, two morals in the story: First, Goodness will always fight evil...when things get bad enough. Second, words are powerful, watch and guard what we say. In addition...how immersed in evil is society today, an evil we accept and put up with as a 'normal' state of affairs. While we might not be able to bring goodness to the world, we can bring goodness into our families, our friendships, even our workplace. I always roll my eyes at things like beauty pageants where contestants say their focus is on world peace. Let's start with peace in our families. Also...how much peace was there in competing for the Miss America or Miss Universe title...or any title.

 

[zaangalewa]

Archetypical meaning, representing or constituting an original type after which other similar things are patterned.

It was a joke. The ark is the architype. Or with other words: Psychologically totally interesting. The 7 days week for example is also "only" a psychological moment - nevertheless this rhythm helps a lot. But it exists nothing what we could call astronomically "week".

Just as there are many stories where the setting is war, there are many stories where the setting is the flood. The Great Flood is not the point of the story, it is the setting of the story.

It uses the usual elements, Good versus Evil.

Hmm ...

As God was seen as the epitome of Goodness and Love, he is appalled at the wickedness that was encroaching on a world and a people he made for goodness, to love and be loved.

Eh? Wait a moment - this I have to translate first. ... "god was apalled" ... ¿makes this sense? ... and god made them for goodness? It was their freedom not to be good but this has consequences - everything has always consequences - ... I guess you underestimate another factor: What had this people been able to think and what had they not been able to think? They had for sure not been able to think at this time of history that a natural catastrophe is able to happen without any concrete cause only on reason "shit happens".

Noah had been able to communicate with god and trusted in him. So he made this very crazy thing to build "rainship ark" thousands of years ago. But the people said perhaps only "What an idiot". It was not Noah who did not like to take them with him.

As you noted, water is formless, and in the beginning the world was formless. Water is also used in baptism.

But this is not the reason why water is used for bapitism. Water is the substance life needs to live. It is said: Now our body is a body of water - but the next body will be a body of light.

Water saved what was right; and from water/formlessness emerged what is good. I, too, agree that (other than baptism) early man accepted this as so obvious it didn't need explaining. Water washes.

Also an important aspect. Pureness.

Tragedy--then and now--has a way for awakening people to what they could have done better, where they went wrong.

Sodom and Gommorah never had been found so I am not sure about the real time frame of this story. Perhaps "rainship ark" will one day be "starship ark"? And everyone will think Captain Kirk ... ah sorry: Captain Noah ... is a strange weirdo?

Sudden, unexpected death occurs to someone close, and we can't help but think of our relationship with that person, and all we did wrong. People who survived the flood were faced with all the wrong that had been going on, and how they did little (or nothing) to change this. We have a way of accepting and living with what we are emerged in. It is only later, when we emerge, do we see wickedness or uncleanness for what it was. Goodness is then--for a time--more clearly seen.

Today we are able to think in a totally other way than the people had been able to think thousands of years ago. And let me say: I have not any idea why people have a problem with the story of Noahs ark by discussing things which are totally uninteresting for children. When a storm comes then we will bring dog, cat and guinea piq to Noah's ark and Noah will take care. So what's the problem? We can swim - if not then we will learn to swim.

Getting back to the archetypical: Word/language has great power.

If you tell someone a lie and the other one believes you and afterwards you will tell him that you told him a lie then he will not believe you.

Gossip, curses, schemes are all set in motion with words. A fascinating point in Noah's story is that before the flood, during the flood, and immediately after the flood, he never said a word. And we are told that Noah was righteous. A righteous man emerges to start over, but an archetypical man...the first words the author has Noah speaking was to curse one of his family. A curse that would result in wickedness once more taking root and growing in the world. Is our own speech patterned after Noah before the flood, or after the flood?

God was always doing everything what I ask him for - that's how I Iearned not to ask him any longer. My prayer is: "Make it your way, I know that's the best way. And if I should have a stupid idea - ignore it!".

At a minimum, two morals in the story: First, Goodness will always fight evil...

I'm not sure whether goodness will fight at all. Is fighting able to close hells?

when things get bad enough.

When it's bad enough and people suffer big hunger then they do not fight. They'll die - that's all.

Second, words are powerful, watch and guard what we say.

Who is "we"? ¿US-Americans?

In addition...how immersed in evil is society today, an evil we accept and put up with as a 'normal' state of affairs.

Empty phrase

While we

?

might not be able to bring goodness to the world, we can bring goodness into our families,

Goodness ... hmmm ... I am not sure whether you understand the same when you say goodness and I say "Güte". For to be "gütig" I do not need good and evil. I need trust, love, quality and perhaps also kindness ... but sometimes it's perhaps also better to be a little rougher.

our friendships, even our workplace. I always roll my eyes at things like beauty pageants

"Schönheitswettbewerbe" ... got it

where contestants say their focus is on world peace.

Safety, peace and beauty have to do with each other. Nearly nothing is more ugly than a half-decomposed stinking corpse.

Let's start with peace in our families.

The father of Heinrich Himmler called him a criminal and warned in this way everyone else. Today many people say his father had been evil because he had called him a criminal. Keeps one problem: His son had been a criminal - one of the worst the world ever had seen. But looks like no one believed his "evil" father.

Also...how much peace was there in competing for the Miss America or Miss Universe title...or any title.

I would be a wonderful Miss Universe if I had dug myself out of the pile of rotten tomatoes that were thrown at me during the election.