A Suppressed atrocity: The day Israel attacked the U.S.A.

[Billo_Really]

And yet here we are nearly 50 years later and there not a shred of evidence to support your claim (yet plenty to support the US's conclusions). Don't you ever get tired of posting BS?

Nice try!

 

[Beelzebub]

Toastman isn't here to debate the attack on the USS Liberty.

His mission is to disrupt and derail the thread.

Because his precious Israel is being discussed in a negative manner. .....

Call me crazy but I'm not concerned about the threat one such as you believes Israel (or Jews) represents to America but I am concerned about the threat radical Islamists (your brethren) represent not only to America (see: 9/11) but to the world.

So concerned you support radicalising thousands more through applying unAmerican levels of injustice in Palestine, which every enquiry worth its salt has identified as the major cause of radicalising Muslims...

There is NOTHING we can do, short of submitting to Islam or committing national suicide, which will stem the radicalization of naïve, impressionable, ignorant and desperate youths by media savvy manipulators. Even if we succumbed I believe they would continue to enlist their Islamist armies and turn on each other.
It is simply the way of the "Religion of Peace" and it's time you face that very obvious fact.

See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved.

I will add that national suicide doesn't need human deaths. But if justice is done we should build prison capacity to rival all that which is currently available for the Israel leadership, and US & European collaborators.

 

[SAYIT]

Toastman isn't here to debate the attack on the USS Liberty.

His mission is to disrupt and derail the thread.

Because his precious Israel is being discussed in a negative manner. .....

Call me crazy but I'm not concerned about the threat one such as you believes Israel (or Jews) represents to America but I am concerned about the threat radical Islamists (your brethren) represent not only to America (see: 9/11) but to the world.

So concerned you support radicalising thousands more through applying unAmerican levels of injustice in Palestine, which every enquiry worth its salt has identified as the major cause of radicalising Muslims...

There is NOTHING we can do, short of submitting to Islam or committing national suicide, which will stem the radicalization of naïve, impressionable, ignorant and desperate youths by media savvy manipulators. Even if we succumbed I believe they would continue to enlist their Islamist armies and turn on each other.
It is simply the way of the "Religion of Peace" and it's time you face that very obvious fact.

See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved.

I will add that national suicide doesn't need human deaths. But if justice is done we should build prison capacity to rival all that which is currently available for the Israel leadership, and US & European collaborators.

But we aren't speaking about Israel, , and Israel has nothing in common with Nazi Germany.
We ARE speaking about the US and how some believes all we need to do is throw Israel under the bus to stem the enlistment of ignorant, naïve kids to the Islamist cause.

 

[Desperado]

In the Israeli government investigations historical report, it was acknowledged that IDF naval headquarters knew at least three hours before the attack that the ship was "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy"

There are other reports that state IDF knew of the USS Liberty upto 9 hours before the attack...

This is a very detailed account of the attack...

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Typical attempt to deceive by an anti-Israel/anti-Jew cabalist.
While it is true Israel identified an American Naval vessel hours before, as witnessed by the changes of the Liberty's position and status they had no reason to believe the Liberty was that vessel. From your source (note that Rabin made no mention of an American ship in the area):
At 11:24 am, Israeli Chief of Naval Operations received a report that Arish was being shelled from the sea...
Additionally, at 11:27 am Israeli Supreme Command Head of Operations received a report stating that a ship had been shelling Arish, but the shells had fallen short...
At 11:45 am, another report arrived at Supreme Command saying two ships were approaching the Arish coast...
As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected...
Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby...

Where was my attempt to deceive?

Did you read my post?

Did it not say Israeli government investigations?

Where is the deception in the Israeli government investigations?

I find it extremely unlikely you do not understand the deception you've attempted, therefore I must conclude you are doubling down on it.
Your point was that Israel knew the Liberty was an American ship at the time of the attack and clearly that was not the case.

Why is it that you try and argue against FACT?

The point is that the Israeli government DID know that the ship they were about to attack WAS American!

As stated in the Israeli Government's OWN report... "at least 3 hours before the attack"

Gee's man don't take my word for it... READ THE LINK I POSTED!

What is wrong with you? I not only read your link, I QUOTED FROM IT and clearly it states the Israelis lost track of the Liberty and did not know they were attacking an American ship. Once again, from your source:
"At about 6:00 am, the aerial naval observer reported that the ship appeared like a U.S. Navy supply ship; the red marker was replaced with a green marker to indicate a neutral vessel, at about 9:00 am... USS Liberty's marker was removed from CCC's Control Table at 11:00 am, due to its positional information being considered stale."

Ok, it is a clear day and the USS Liberty is flying the US Flag, yet the Israeli jets attacked claiming it was a case of mistaken identity.
Even if you buy into that story, how do you explain the Israeli Patrol boats mistaking the USS Liberty for a Egyptian freighter?
They were close enough to fire machine guns into the Liberty's life rafts so they were close enough to realize that it was an American ship!
Which brings up another point.... Is it not a war crime to shoot at survivors in a life raft?

 

[Kondor3]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

 

[Humanity]

In the Israeli government investigations historical report, it was acknowledged that IDF naval headquarters knew at least three hours before the attack that the ship was "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy"

There are other reports that state IDF knew of the USS Liberty upto 9 hours before the attack...

This is a very detailed account of the attack...

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Typical attempt to deceive by an anti-Israel/anti-Jew cabalist.
While it is true Israel identified an American Naval vessel hours before, as witnessed by the changes of the Liberty's position and status they had no reason to believe the Liberty was that vessel. From your source (note that Rabin made no mention of an American ship in the area):
At 11:24 am, Israeli Chief of Naval Operations received a report that Arish was being shelled from the sea...
Additionally, at 11:27 am Israeli Supreme Command Head of Operations received a report stating that a ship had been shelling Arish, but the shells had fallen short...
At 11:45 am, another report arrived at Supreme Command saying two ships were approaching the Arish coast...
As Commander Oren headed toward Arish, he was informed by Naval Operations of the reported shelling of Arish and told that IAF aircraft would be dispatched to the area after the target had been detected...
Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby...

Where was my attempt to deceive?

Did you read my post?

Did it not say Israeli government investigations?

Where is the deception in the Israeli government investigations?

I find it extremely unlikely you do not understand the deception you've attempted, therefore I must conclude you are doubling down on it.
Your point was that Israel knew the Liberty was an American ship at the time of the attack and clearly that was not the case.

Why is it that you try and argue against FACT?

The point is that the Israeli government DID know that the ship they were about to attack WAS American!

As stated in the Israeli Government's OWN report... "at least 3 hours before the attack"

Gee's man don't take my word for it... READ THE LINK I POSTED!

What is wrong with you? I not only read your link, I QUOTED FROM IT and clearly it states the Israelis lost track of the Liberty and did not know they were attacking an American ship. Once again, from your source:
"At about 6:00 am, the aerial naval observer reported that the ship appeared like a U.S. Navy supply ship; the red marker was replaced with a green marker to indicate a neutral vessel, at about 9:00 am... USS Liberty's marker was removed from CCC's Control Table at 11:00 am, due to its positional information being considered stale."

What is wrong with YOU?!?!

Did you read this?

"In the historical report, it was acknowledged that IDF naval headquarters knew at least three hours before the attack that the ship was "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy"

Thats from the Israeli Government findings!

 

[Beelzebub]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

Its spot on.
It could not be more accurate if dictionaries defined Israel as "Nazi Germany after 1945".

 

[Kondor3]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

Its spot on.
It could not be more accurate if dictionaries defined Israel as "Nazi Germany after 1945".

Thank you for your personal opinion on the subject.

That does not, however, render your opinion operative.

 

[Beelzebub]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

Its spot on.
It could not be more accurate if dictionaries defined Israel as "Nazi Germany after 1945".

Thank you for your personal opinion on the subject.

That does not, however, render your opinion operative.

Err. You wot?
If opinions are meaningless, please stop presenting your own. And ah, I suppose all political discussion should stop.

 

[Kondor3]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

Its spot on.
It could not be more accurate if dictionaries defined Israel as "Nazi Germany after 1945".

Thank you for your personal opinion on the subject.

That does not, however, render your opinion operative.

Err. You wot?
If opinions are meaningless, please stop presenting your own. And ah, I suppose all political discussion should stop.

I did not say that opinions are meaningless.

I said that the mere articulating of your opinion did not render it operative.

Just a wee bit of difference between what I wrote and how you spun it.

Nice try.

Not.

 

[Beelzebub]

Ahem.

That's your opinion.
And your opinion is not operative. Whatever you desire anyone to assume you mean by that.

 

[toastman]

...See, when the state is the same as the state of Nazi Germany, just with more investment in PR, the 'National Suicide' of Israel is not just an option. It is actually desirable for all involved....

Happily, this does not accurately portray the State of Israel, except in the feverish ranting of pro-Palestinian / pro-Hamas propagandist circles, and, of course, amongst the naive and foolhardy, who readily drink the Militant Islamist Kool-Aid.

Its spot on.
It could not be more accurate if dictionaries defined Israel as "Nazi Germany after 1945".

Obviously that's not true. If you're going to make up bullshit, at least TRY and make it somewhat believable.

 

[Kondor3]

Ahem. That's your opinion. And your opinion is not operative. Whatever you desire anyone to assume you mean by that.

If that was addressed to me, in response to my latest in this series, then...

Stating that a declaration of opinion does not, ipso facto, render it operative, is, indeed, a presentation of fact, rather than opinion. Don't be silly.

 

[Challenger]

The U.S.S. Liberty incident was hushed up for decades by successive U.S. governments. Seems the American people might finally get the chance to discover the truth.

The Day Israel Attacked America - Special series - Al Jazeera English

"...Fast forward to 2009 and I was a guest speaker at the NSA's biennial conference on historical cryptography, talking about an unsolved code on an 18th century monument in an English stately home.

While there, I went to two other sessions - both about attacks on American signal intelligence naval vessels.

The first was the capture of the US spy ship, the Pueblo (boarded by North Korean forces in 1968 - and never returned). The survivors of that incident were treated like heroes and feted on stage.

The next day there was a session about the USS Liberty. James Scott, who has written easily the best book on the Liberty attack, was on stage and limited to his allotted 20 minutes. Ranged against him were three Israeli apologists, all of whom were allowed to overrun their time. Survivors from the Liberty affair were allowed to sit in the audience, but they were denied any say in proceedings.

As an Englishman, I was brought up with a strong sense of fair play and I thought this was a disgrace. It was gruesome to watch. First, the crew had been attacked in broad daylight by a close ally, then they were betrayed by their government and now they were being humiliated by the same agency many had worked for back in 1967..."--- Richard Belfield

As an Englishman, I agree with him. Should be an interesting watch.

This occurred long ago, holding this kind of grudge is what muslims do and is why they can't join with the world.

if we help grudges like them, we could not be allies with; England, Japan, Germany, Libia, Italy, Spain, etc etc

however, I would like to know all the facts.

The idea of friendly fire is impossible to believe since there's a huge flag, the ship looks different, they radioed them and told them they were Americans and there's this thing we use called "IFF" Identify Friend or Foe, that is never shut off.

As an Englishman I did my own research and found that the same vessels were bought by Egypt after WW2, being a standard class of freighter made in large numbers during the war. The Americans denied they had any vessels in the area when asked by the Israeli government, leading them to believe it was an Egyptian naval vessel. The flag used was not a standard American navy issue one, but an over large one leading the Isrealis to think that it was a false flag operation. Even the American military stated that it was an accident and they should have not had the vessel so close to a war zone. The outline of the Egyptian vessels is very similar to the USS Liberty and at subsonic speeds the pilots would only have a short time to ascertain the vessels ID. Many radio requests were ignored until the first plane started firing on the vessel, that is when the "joke" flag was raised and the radio calls answered

Even with IFF there have been friendly fire accidents, many during the Gulf war when British troops were killed by American fire.

Did you really, care to provide us with the fruits of your research?

 

[Beelzebub]

Ahem. That's your opinion. And your opinion is not operative. Whatever you desire anyone to assume you mean by that.

If that was addressed to me, in response to my latest in this series, then...

Stating that a declaration of opinion does not, ipso facto, render it operative, is, indeed, a presentation of fact, rather than opinion. Don't be silly.

Is that your opinion?
You really are a twat aren't you.

 

[Kondor3]

Ahem. That's your opinion. And your opinion is not operative. Whatever you desire anyone to assume you mean by that.

If that was addressed to me, in response to my latest in this series, then...

Stating that a declaration of opinion does not, ipso facto, render it operative, is, indeed, a presentation of fact, rather than opinion. Don't be silly.

Is that your opinion?
You really are a twat aren't you.

Translation:

"Well, Kondor, after multiple attempts, I have yet to successfully counterpoint your simple observation about opinion not rendering fact, nor have I been able to extricate myself from having mis-read and mis-spun what you had said on the matter, and I can't bring myself to admit either of those publicly, so, I think I'll resort to personal attacks, to deflect attention away from my losing that little exchange, just for grins-and-giggles."

Agreed.

 

[Challenger]

Does the US normally inform their allies of intelligence gathering operations? If so, the NSA forgot to tell us they were spying on us, the Germans, the French, etc. Last time I looked we were supposed to be allies.

Fair enough. For whatever reason, the Navy didn't tell the Israelis we were sending a spy ship into a war zone.

That doesn't prove the Israelis attacked the ship knowing it was American. In fact, it indicates exactly the opposite, that they saw a rickety old ship in a war zone and concluded it was like many similar ships purchased by their enemies after WWII.

Again, what did Israel gain by knowingly attacking an American ship?

That is explained in the documentary, also the Liberty was flying three "stars and stripes" flags, one of which was big enough to be seen miles away. The audio tape evidence clearly shows the Israelis knew the ship was American and confirmed it as such. Prior to the attack the ship was overflown by Israeli reconaissance aircraft on multiple occasions so failure to correctly identify the ship seems a bit far fetched to me.

 

[Beelzebub]

Ahem. That's your opinion. And your opinion is not operative. Whatever you desire anyone to assume you mean by that.

If that was addressed to me, in response to my latest in this series, then...

Stating that a declaration of opinion does not, ipso facto, render it operative, is, indeed, a presentation of fact, rather than opinion. Don't be silly.

Is that your opinion?
You really are a twat aren't you.

Translation:

"Well, Kondor, after multiple attempts, I have yet to successfully counterpoint your simple observation about opinion not rendering fact, nor have I been able to extricate myself from having mis-read and mis-spun what you had said on the matter, and I can't bring myself to admit either of those publicly, so, I think I'll resort to personal attacks, to deflect attention away from my losing that little exchange, just for grins-and-giggles."

Agreed.

Keep it up Kondor. The only way you can "win" a point is to converse with yourself.
We can watch with amusement as you make up both ends of the discussion.

Is it possible that you would lose both sides of it? I am sure you will come close.

 

[Kondor3]

Keep it up Kondor. The only way you can "win" a point is to converse with yourself. We can watch with amusement as you make up both ends of the discussion. Is it possible that you would lose both sides of it? I am sure you will come close.

Still haven't managed to figure-out yet that you lost that little exchange, have you? Oh, well. It wasn't terribly important, anyway. Certainly not worth the automatic gainsay.

 

[Kondor3]

Does the US normally inform their allies of intelligence gathering operations? If so, the NSA forgot to tell us they were spying on us, the Germans, the French, etc. Last time I looked we were supposed to be allies.

Fair enough. For whatever reason, the Navy didn't tell the Israelis we were sending a spy ship into a war zone.

That doesn't prove the Israelis attacked the ship knowing it was American. In fact, it indicates exactly the opposite, that they saw a rickety old ship in a war zone and concluded it was like many similar ships purchased by their enemies after WWII.

Again, what did Israel gain by knowingly attacking an American ship?

That is explained in the documentary, also the Liberty was flying three "stars and stripes" flags, one of which was big enough to be seen miles away. The audio tape evidence clearly shows the Israelis knew the ship was American and confirmed it as such. Prior to the attack the ship was overflown by Israeli reconaissance aircraft on multiple occasions so failure to correctly identify the ship seems a bit far fetched to me.

There is a ring of truth to this, at least on the circumstantial level.

So, tell us, in your estimation: Why did the Israelis fire upon the USS Liberty, if they knew the identity of the ship?