Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[buttercup]

God has chosen those who are special to him, above all others.

Chosen for what? Are you claiming that God chooses some people to be saved and others not to be? If so, that sounds like Calvinism, and I think that is completely wrong. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Calvinism is demonic. But I don't want to get too off topic here.

 

[buttercup]

What do you mean by "valuable"?

See post #38, the one right under your post.

 

[Leo123]

Would you say that all human beings are equally valuable? I'm not talking about this from the perspective of society. When we look at this world and all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history, I think it's safe to say that most people don't believe that all lives are equally valuable. But of course people aren't the source of objective truth. So my question is, what do you believe the actual truth is, in regard to human value? Would you say that all lives are inherently equal in value?

If your answer is yes, please explain why you believe that. If your answer is no, please explain why you believe that, and what things determine human value, in your view.

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value. We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes.

I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

Define value first. You have to have some sort of scale to determine a value.

 

[buttercup]

I look at it from the standpoint that God loves us all equally. When one experiences the love of God, 'value' kind of takes a lesser place. For example, can we really differentiate between the value of a General and the cook who feeds his army? Is a teacher more valuable than a priest/minister? A gardener more valuable than a plumber?

There was once a special ed child who had an experience of God that God loved him so much, he would be very close to Him in the hereafter. When his mother heard of the experience, she said, "I love you, will you be next to me, too?" His reply, "But God really loves me."

I work with special ed kids fairly often. Each time I do, I'm filled with awe. They have a tough row to hoe, yet their love is pure, and I haven't a doubt they are among those God really loves.

I remember a gardener once told me, "A weed is simply a plant out of place." Sometimes when the people around us don't seem all they could/might be, maybe the same is true for them. Sometimes aren't we all just a person out of place?

Great post. I love that story about the special ed kid. Wow, that kid has more wisdom than a lot of older people, lol!

You just reminded me of that verse (I can't remember the book/chapter off the top of my head) "the first will be last and the last will be first."

It just goes to show that many of things that this world values are not at all the same things that God values.

This is really random, but speaking of the first being last and the last being first.... I absolutely love this song. It's worth a listen, but it has to be listened to the whole way through, because it's slow but picks up about half way into it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

See post #38, the one right under your post.

Well, value to God is a little weird. If God made the universe, then humans are as valuable as any other creature in the universe.

Our value to other people depends on how much value someone sees in these people. A mother or a father have more value to their kids than they do to some dude they barely know.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hmm... you're putting me on the spot here, lol. Well, I'm not defining it in the same way a dictionary would. If we were to go to a dictionary, the word 'valuable' usually has to do with monetary worth. But of course when we're talking about human value, it's a different matter. I don't know what the best definition would be, but some words that come to my mind are worth, or preciousness. But precious to who? This gets back to my earlier point about the source of objective truth. Even if a person (let's say a poor disabled orphan) is not considered valuable by their family or society, that person is still precious to God. So our value doesn't come from how valuable we are to others, but to God.

As for those scenarios you brought up...I think that first example has to do with their role / abilities being more important or useful than others, for that particular time. So that's talking about 'value' in the sense of usefulness. I would say they still have the same intrinsic value. In that last example, I think from our human perspective it would be a no-brainer... we'd save the philanthropist, for sure. But that's our perspective. I don't think it negates the biblical truth that all human lives are equally valuable to God. At least in the sense that God created all of us and was willing to give His life for ALL people, not just some. That reminds me of a quote by C.S Lewis. Here it is:

"He died not for men, but for each man. If each man had been the only man made, He would have done no less.”
― C.S. Lewis

I don't disagree when it comes to the spiritual realm. Yes Jesus paid the price for all sins without distinction and the Bible pretty strongly teaches us that there will be no upper and lower status in Heaven. Our salvation was bought at a terrible price and therefore has value beyond measure.

And I wasn't even thinking of monetary value in any sense. But I don't think God requires us to set aside common sense here.. Though there is nothing we can do to earn or merit our salvation--no one is more worthy than another--I do think we are expected to live valuable lives as much as possible or maybe more accurately to live our lives knowing we are of value to God. And that will make us of greater value to our fellow humans on Earth.

It is difficult to find the words to fully describe it. I hope others have the gift of discernment here. LOL.

 

[SweetSue92]

Would you say that all human beings are equally valuable? I'm not talking about this from the perspective of society. When we look at this world and all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history, I think it's safe to say that most people don't believe that all lives are equally valuable. But of course people aren't the source of objective truth. So my question is, what do you believe the actual truth is, in regard to human value? Would you say that all lives are inherently equal in value?

If your answer is yes, please explain why you believe that. If your answer is no, please explain why you believe that, and what things determine human value, in your view.

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value. We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes.

I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

There is God's view and there is my view.

I will start with mine not bc mine is more important (!!!) but because it is critical that I ground myself there. All humans are made in the image of God, individually, and thus are infinitely valuable. Beyond that I can judge words, actions and decisions, but it is not mine to judge worth.

God judges worth.

God chooses His saints--that does not mean perfect people. It means people called from the beginning of time to be His. It is far beyond my scope and ability to even begin to approach this, so I end where I started: all humans are image-bearers of God.

 

[SweetSue92]

Well fatties would render-down into more bio-diesel so in that respect they would be more valuable.

Of course, you would have to catch them before their medical bills pile up.

You joke about this but in a worldview with no God, this is our worth ultimately. A bag of meat.

 

[SweetSue92]

Chosen for what? Are you claiming that God chooses some people to be saved and others not to be? If so, that sounds like Calvinism, and I think that is completely wrong. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Calvinism is demonic. But I don't want to get too off topic here.

I am not a strict five-point Calvinist; I hold it loosely. But if you dismiss this idea entirely, you are basically saying that God is subjected to OUR will. He did not choose US, we choose Him. And if we do, then He is "hostage" to our choice.

FWIW

My denomination is generally Reformed (Calvinist), but we welcome members who are Arminian and those who take a "middle" position and those who have no idea at all (ha). It's not a make-or-break Christian belief, whether you subscribe to predestination. But it IS all over the Bible.

 

[Anathema]

I completely disagree, but thanks for your opinion. It's interesting to hear what different people have to say...

I’m interested to hear what you think the value of individuals who lie, cheat, steal, assault, batter, or otherwise commit crimes both moral and legal is.

 

[Lisa558]

Why do you think "the chosen" are special in God's eyes? BTW, the "chosen" are only for THIS Age of Man. God offers all Mankind the same destiny -- each in their own time. All created humans have the same worth in His eyes.

Actually, you’ve hit on a problem I have with Christianity.

In Christianity, only those who believe Jesus was G-d’s son get to a heaven. In Judaism, one has to be a good person by doing mitzvot - and that extends to non-Jews as well.

G-d values ALL his children.

 

[SweetSue92]

Actually, you’ve hit on a problem I have with Christianity.

In Christianity, only those who believe Jesus was G-d’s son get to a heaven. In Judaism, one has to be a good person by doing mitzvot - and that extends to non-Jews as well.

G-d values ALL his children.

A common issue/problem/struggle etc. But it has to do with us measuring ourselves against ourselves, which is not the measure of the perfect, holy God.

If God is holy, and perfect, then He can abide no stain of sin in His Kingdom. When Adam and Eve sinned they were expelled from the Garden. They couldn't stay.

We can't "stay" with Him either if we retain sin. God can't do anything about our sin, without Jesus, that doesn't violate His own immutable attributes. He is ultimately just. It might be merciful to "wave a magic wand" and forgive sin, but it's not just. We understand this because we don't just "forgive" people if they assault or murder our loved ones. We want justice.

So God--merciful, loving, holy--present His Son as the Lamb.

He takes the punishment for our sin, and so justice is fulfilled.

We take on His righteousness, and are granted eternity with Him.

Of course, you don't have to believe it. But it is sensible.

 

[1srelluc]

You joke about this but in a worldview with no God, this is our worth ultimately. A bag of meat.

I got news for you......Our current "leaders" value us as little more than a matrix-style battery farm.

 

[Lisa558]

A common issue/problem/struggle etc. But it has to do with us measuring ourselves against ourselves, which is not the measure of the perfect, holy God.

If God is holy, and perfect, then He can abide no stain of sin in His Kingdom. When Adam and Eve sinned they were expelled from the Garden. They couldn't stay.

We can't "stay" with Him either if we retain sin. God can't do anything about our sin, without Jesus, that doesn't violate His own immutable attributes. He is ultimately just. It might be merciful to "wave a magic wand" and forgive sin, but it's not just. We understand this because we don't just "forgive" people if they assault or murder our loved ones. We want justice.

So God--merciful, loving, holy--present His Son as the Lamb.

He takes the punishment for our sin, and so justice is fulfilled.

We take on His righteousness, and are granted eternity with Him.

Of course, you don't have to believe it. But it is sensible.

Again, that’s from the Christian perspective. From the Jewish perspective, G-d rewards good people - as measured by the lives they’ve led - with Heaven.

It does not require a belief in Jesus to be a good person. Judaism lays out 613 mitzvot for us to follow, which Hillel summed up as “that which is distasteful to you, do not do unto others.” Jesus had great admiration for Hillel and preached the same thing, although he changed it to the positive: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

G-d wants us to be good people.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Actually, you’ve hit on a problem I have with Christianity.

In Christianity, only those who believe Jesus was G-d’s son get to a heaven. In Judaism, one has to be a good person by doing mitzvot - and that extends to non-Jews as well.

G-d values ALL his children.

I believe Jesus: Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. Good works alone don't save you. God looks for a repentant spuritt

 

[Lisa558]

I believe Jesus: Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. Good works alone don't save you. God looks for a repentant spuritt

Yes, I know that’s what you believe, being a Christian. I’m just saying that Judaism teaches there is a different path that does not require that belief.

As far as a repentant soul, yea indeed….Gd wants us to recognize our failings, vow to to differently, and ask for forgiveness. That is what the Day of Atonement is all about.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I’m interested to hear what you think the value of individuals who lie, cheat, steal, assault, batter, or otherwise commit crimes both moral and legal is.

You are among those people. God sees what you are CAPABLE of. The choice is yours

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yes, I know that’s what you believe, being a Christian. I’m just saying that Judaism teaches there is a different path that does not require that belief.

As far as a repentant soul, yea indeed….Gd wants us to recognize our failings, vow to to differently, and ask for forgiveness. That is what the Day of Atonement is all about.

Repentance is DAILY. But yes, I observe the Day of Atonement too. Jesus and the apostles and prophets all did. The Holy Days reveal His plan for Mankind

 

[Lisa558]

Repentance is DAILY. But yes, I observe the Day of Atonement too. Jesus and the apostles and prophets all did. The Holy Days reveal His plan for Mankind

Yes, agree….one does not and should not wait until the Day of Atonement to confess one’s sins and seek forgiveness.

 

[SweetSue92]

I got news for you......Our current "leaders" value us as little more than a matrix-style battery farm.

Well of course