Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[SweetSue92]

Again, that’s from the Christian perspective. From the Jewish perspective, G-d rewards good people - as measured by the lives they’ve led - with Heaven.

It does not require a belief in Jesus to be a good person. Judaism lays out 613 mitzvot for us to follow, which Hillel summed up as “that which is distasteful to you, do not do unto others.” Jesus had great admiration for Hillel and preached the same thing, although he changed it to the positive: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

G-d wants us to be good people.

Yes, of course to your last. We need a resurgence of Christianity and Judaism in this nation--it would transform everything. Everything

 

[Woodznutz]

Chosen for what? Are you claiming that God chooses some people to be saved and others not to be? If so, that sounds like Calvinism, and I think that is completely wrong. In fact, I'd go as far to say that Calvinism is demonic. But I don't want to get too off topic here.

God has chosen certain people for his special purposes. Regarding salvation I think most will have a crack at it. Do a word study on "chosen". It will answer the question straight from the Bible.

 

[buttercup]

Well, value to God is a little weird. If God made the universe, then humans are as valuable as any other creature in the universe.

Our value to other people depends on how much value someone sees in these people. A mother or a father have more value to their kids than they do to some dude they barely know.

Well, God does value and love the animals HE created too. Much more than most Christians realize, but I digress.

As for the second thing you said, yes, of course. But let me ask you this... If the entire world population was wiped out, with the exception of one child, do you believe that child has value?

 

[buttercup]

I don't disagree when it comes to the spiritual realm. Yes Jesus paid the price for all sins without distinction and the Bible pretty strongly teaches us that there will be no upper and lower status in Heaven. Our salvation was bought at a terrible price and therefore has value beyond measure.

And I wasn't even thinking of monetary value in any sense. But I don't think God requires us to set aside common sense here.. Though there is nothing we can do to earn or merit our salvation--no one is more worthy than another--I do think we are expected to live valuable lives as much as possible or maybe more accurately to live our lives knowing we are of value to God. And that will make us of greater value to our fellow humans on Earth.

It is difficult to find the words to fully describe it. I hope others have the gift of discernment here. LOL.

I agree. I hope I haven't given the impression that we should set aside common sense. Ha. And I totally agree that knowing we are of value to God will help us be of greater value to our fellow humans.

 

[buttercup]

I’m interested to hear what you think the value of individuals who lie, cheat, steal, assault, batter, or otherwise commit crimes both moral and legal is.

I think human beings have both good and bad in them. I think human nature tends to be selfish, and a bit hypocritical, and that causes people to do things to others that they would never want done to themselves. But at the same time, we all have a conscience, which is God-given. That's the good side of us. If people would listen to their conscience and follow the Golden Rule, then this world would be a much better place, overnight. But unfortunately, it's possible for someone to damage or weaken their conscience. The bible says it can be "seared", like by a hot iron. And when that happens, pretty much anything goes.

It sounds like you think human beings are only bad. That's a very cynical outlook, but I do understand that when people have been through horrible experiences, they can become that way. I just don't believe that is the truth. There's more to be said here, but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Natural Citizen]

A snip of relevant reading from a good book regarding some of the arguments as well as some of the counter-arguments made in the thread....

I think that some of the counter-arguments which have been made fall short in demonstrating an understanding of the relationship of the counter-argument to the fundamentals involved and therefore attempt to separate them. But whatever.

A Principle of the Traditional American Philosophy

1. The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . .." (Declaration of Independence)

The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man. To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". .. all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ."

This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion.

This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion.

This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.

IBLP Online Store: The American Ideal of 1776

 

[Anathema]

I think human beings have both good and bad in them. I think human nature tends to be selfish, and a bit hypocritical, and that causes people to do things to others that they would never want done to themselves. But at the same time, we all have a conscience, which is God-given. That's the good side of us. If people would listen to their conscience and follow the Golden Rule, then this world would be a much better place, overnight. But unfortunately, it's possible for someone to damage or weaken their conscience. The bible says it can be "seared", like by a hot iron. And when that happens, pretty much anything goes.

It sounds like you think human beings are only bad. That's a very cynical outlook, but I do understand that when people have been through horrible experiences, they can become that way. I just don't believe that is the truth. There's more to be said here, but I'll leave it at that for now.

For me it’s less about Good and Bad as it is about Right and Wrong. That probably sounds like the same thing to most people but it isn’t. Right and Wrong have no emotional factor to them.

If you’re driving 25 mph in a 15 mph zone you’re in the Wrong, pure and simple. People might say that’s not a bad thing because you’re rushing to pick up your kid at school. That’s irrelevant. The speed limit is 15, so you’re in the wrong.

 

[buttercup]

Again, that’s from the Christian perspective. From the Jewish perspective, G-d rewards good people - as measured by the lives they’ve led - with Heaven.

It does not require a belief in Jesus to be a good person. Judaism lays out 613 mitzvot for us to follow, which Hillel summed up as “that which is distasteful to you, do not do unto others.” Jesus had great admiration for Hillel and preached the same thing, although he changed it to the positive: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

G-d wants us to be good people.

I know your post wasn't directed to me, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I agree, of course, that God wants us to be good people. But the thing is, it is impossible for us to achieve God's standard on our own, and as someone mentioned to you, God's standard is perfection. Based on what you've said, it sounds like Judaism (along with nearly all other world religions) leaves out what I firmly believe is the essential, key component. And that is spiritual birth. When we are born again, we literally become a new creation. We have a new heart, a new nature, everything is new.

One of the things that makes Christianity unique among all the world religions is that it is not works-based, it's not about our own merit. It's about believing and trusting what God did for ALL people... and at that point we are born spiritually and become an actual son or daughter of the living God of the universe. Which is a truly awesome thing. We no longer have to strive to try to be a "good person" on our own...because if one is genuinely saved, as I said before, they are a new creation, and the good works will inevitably come. There will be good "fruit" so to speak. You've probably heard this, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. As SweetSue mentioned, that doesn't mean we become perfect. But our fundamental nature has changed.

This is an old video, but I think it's a great "cliff notes" summary of the Gospel, in less than 5 minutes. I think it's worth watching, so I'll share it....

 

[buttercup]

A snip of relevant reading from a good book regarding some of the arguments as well as some of the counter-arguments made in the thread....

I think that some of the counter-arguments which have been made fall short in demonstrating an understanding of the relationship of the counter-argument to the fundamentals involved and therefore attempt to separate them. But whatever.

A Principle of the Traditional American Philosophy

1. The Spiritual is Supreme

". . . all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . .." (Declaration of Independence)

The Principle

1. The fundamental principle underlying the traditional American philosophy is that the Spiritual is supreme--that Man is of Divine origin and his spiritual, or religious, nature is of supreme value and importance compared with things material.

Religious Nature

2. This governmental philosophy is, therefore, essentially religious in nature. It is uniquely American; no other people in all history have ever made this principle the basis of their governmental philosophy. The spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God is a concept which is basic to this American philosophy. It expresses the spiritual relationship of God to Man and, in the light thereof, of Man to Man. To forget these truths is a most heinous offense against the spirit of traditional America because the greatest sin is the lost consciousness of sin.

The fundamentally religious basis of this philosophy is the foundation of its moral code, which contemplates The Individual's moral duty as being created by God's Law: the Natural Law. The Individual's duty requires obedience to this Higher Law; while knowledge of this duty comes from conscience, which the religious-minded and morally-aware Individual feels duty-bound to heed. This philosophy asserts that there are moral absolutes: truths, such as those mentioned above, which are binding upon all Individuals at all times under all circumstances. This indicates some of the spiritual and moral values which are inherent in its concept of Individual Liberty-Responsibility.

An Indivisible Whole

3. The American philosophy, based upon this principle, is an indivisible whole and must be accepted or rejected as such. It cannot be treated piece-meal. Its fundamentals and its implicit meanings and obligations must be accepted together with its benefits.

The Individual's Self-respect

4. The concept of Man's spiritual nature, and the resulting concept of the supreme dignity and value of each Individual, provide the fundamental basis for each Individual's self-respect and the consequent mutual respect among Individual's. This self-respect as well as this mutual respect are the outgrowth of, and evidenced by, The Individual's maintenance of his God-given, unalienable rights. They are maintained by requiring that government and other Individuals respect them, as well as by his dedication to his own unceasing growth toward realization of his highest potential--spiritually, morally, intellectually, in every aspect of life. This is in order that he may merit maximum respect by self and by others.

Some Things Excluded

5. This concept of Man's spiritual nature excludes any idea of intrusion by government into this Man-to-Man spiritual relationship. It excludes the anti-moral precept that the end justifies the means and the related idea that the means can be separated from the end when judging them morally. This concept therefore excludes necessarily any idea of attempting to do good by force--for instance, through coercion of Man by Government, whether or not claimed to be for his own good or for the so-called common good or general welfare.

It excludes disbelief in--even doubt as to the existence of--God as the Creator of Man: and therefore excludes all ideas, theories and schools of thought--however ethical and lofty in intentions--which reject affirmative and positive belief in God as Man's Creator.

The Truly American Concept

6. Only those ideas, programs and practices, regarding things governmental, which are consistent with the concept that "The Spiritual is supreme" can justly be claimed to be truly American traditionally. Anything and everything governmental, which is in conflict with this concept, is non-American--judged by traditional belief.

This applies particularly to that which is agnostic, or atheistic--neutral about, or hostile to, positive and affirmative belief in this concept based upon belief in God as Man's Creator. There is not room for doubt, much less disbelief, in this regard from the standpoint of the traditional American philosophy. Its indivisible nature makes this inescapably true. This pertains, of course, to the realm of ideas and not to any person; it is the conflicting idea which is classified as non-American, according to this philosophy.

America a Haven For All Religions

7. The traditional American philosophy teaches that belief in God is the fundamental link which unites the adherents of all religions in a spiritual brotherhood. This philosophy allows for no differentiation between them in this unifying conviction: ". .. all men are created . . . endowed by their Creator . . ."

This philosophy is all inclusive as to believers in God. Although America was originally colonized predominantly by adherents of the Christian religion, and principally by Protestants, the Founding Fathers steadfastly conformed to this all-embracing character of the approach of the American philosophy to religion.

This was expressly and affirmatively indicated in the proclamation of 1776 of the fundamental American philosophy, of its basic principles, in the Declaration of Independence. This was further indicated, negatively, in 1787-1788 by the Framers and Ratifiers of the Constitution--as a "blueprint" for the structure of the then proposed Federal government, with strictly limited powers--by not permitting it to possess any power with regard to religion.

This implied prohibition against the Federal government was reinforced by the addition of the First Amendment expressly prohibiting it, through the Congress, from making any law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."--the words "an establishment of religion" being intended to mean, specifically and only, a church or religious organization which is established, supported and preferred by the government, like the Church of England establishments then existing in some of the States.

The Conclusion

8. Belief in Man's Divine origin is the foundation of the fundamental American principle which controls his relationship to government: that Man--The Individual--is of supreme dignity and value because of his spiritual nature.

IBLP Online Store: The American Ideal of 1776

I love that, thanks for posting it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those founding principles are what makes America unique among all other governments. Of course I'm talking about what we're supposed to have, not what it has become by those who have tried to destroy it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I love that, thanks for posting it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think those founding principles are what makes America unique among all other governments.

Correct.

Of course I'm talking about what we're supposed to have, not what it has become by those who have tried to destroy it.

Well. The gradual erosion of virtue in society and in government is a direct consequence of the worldviews of those who make frivolous counter-arguments which neglect to recognize the correlation of the counter-argument to the fundamentals involved.

Or...what is Legal is seldom Lawful, for short. This shortcoming is primarily the most unrecognized threat to Individual liberty in America today.

To borrow a quote from another author on the topic, ''This decay has resulted from negligence and apathy on the part of many and from calculated attacks on the part of a few.''

That's probably all I have to say about it...

 

[BreezeWood]

There is no such command by Jesus to the New Testament church, leaving us to rest on the Sabbath day ...

jesus knew the truth, judaism's attempt to portray differently the heavenly completion of their creation on the seventh day is another crime the 4th century crucifiers are guilty of and directly contrary to what jesus taught.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again, that’s from the Christian perspective. From the Jewish perspective, G-d rewards good people - as measured by the lives they’ve led - with Heaven.

It does not require a belief in Jesus to be a good person. Judaism lays out 613 mitzvot for us to follow, which Hillel summed up as “that which is distasteful to you, do not do unto others.” Jesus had great admiration for Hillel and preached the same thing, although he changed it to the positive: “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

G-d wants us to be good people.

Yes he does. And I don't doubt Christianity turns some off by being all over the map, i.e. somewhere between the belief that some are chosen at birth for Heaven and others are not to "Faith without works is dead" which some translate to mean if you don't do good you won't go to Heaven to Luther's belief that there is nothing humankind can do to merit God's salvation which is freely given as a gift to those who believe you must recite specific words and undergo a specific kind of baptism to get to Heaven to those who believe if you don't belong to THEIR church you're doomed and many variations of those versions of all of the above and none of the above.

The purest form of Christianity varies from Judaism in that you cannot earn your way into Heaven on merit as salvation is via the grace of God. But I see so many of examples of God blessing and/or sparing those who were righteous and I have to believe they have more value on Earth than those who prey on the weak, take whatever they want, show no mercy, show no compassion, give value to no one but themselves.

Again there is a dichotomy here but I am comfortable with it.

 

[BreezeWood]

If God is holy, and perfect, then He can abide no stain of sin in His Kingdom. When Adam and Eve sinned they were expelled from the Garden. They couldn't stay.

purity is who reside in the heavens there is no such condition as perfect -

a&e chose self determination not the reversion of servitude and denial as made by 4th century christianity and were given the goal to triumph over evil for their remission to the everlasting as equals among those already in residence.

 

[Road Runner]

I say that humans are as valuable as they treat other people.

 

[Lisa558]

I know your post wasn't directed to me, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I agree, of course, that God wants us to be good people. But the thing is, it is impossible for us to achieve God's standard on our own, and as someone mentioned to you, God's standard is perfection. Based on what you've said, it sounds like Judaism (along with nearly all other world religions) leaves out what I firmly believe is the essential, key component. And that is spiritual birth. When we are born again, we literally become a new creation. We have a new heart, a new nature, everything is new.

One of the things that makes Christianity unique among all the world religions is that it is not works-based, it's not about our own merit. It's about believing and trusting what God did for ALL people... and at that point we are born spiritually and become an actual son or daughter of the living God of the universe. Which is a truly awesome thing. We no longer have to strive to try to be a "good person" on our own...because if one is genuinely saved, as I said before, they are a new creation, and the good works will inevitably come. There will be good "fruit" so to speak. You've probably heard this, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. As SweetSue mentioned, that doesn't mean we become perfect. But our fundamental nature has changed.

This is an old video, but I think it's a great "cliff notes" summary of the Gospel, in less than 5 minutes. I think it's worth watching, so I'll share it....

Again, you come at this from the Christian perspective in that G-d expects perfection. In Judaism, G-d realizes that we are fallible human beings, and asks only that we be good people, and do tishuevah (sorry….Hebrew word, not sure how to spell it out in English) when we fall short.

These are two different belief systems, based on the difference between the two different religions.

(As far as your posting of the Gospel, clearly intended to educate me, I didn’t watch it. I took a course on it in college, and that was enough. It is not part of my religion, but I took the class just to be informed about what Christians believe.)

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well, God does value and love the animals HE created too. Much more than most Christians realize, but I digress.

As for the second thing you said, yes, of course. But let me ask you this... If the entire world population was wiped out, with the exception of one child, do you believe that child has value?

Well, that child will probably die. So...

And does it have value, no, it can do anything, doesn't matter to anyone.

From a planet point of view, no, it doesn't have value, except for the organic material that will go into the ground when it dies and become something else, like plant food.

 

[buttercup]

Again, you come at this from the Christian perspective in that G-d expects perfection. In Judaism, G-d realizes that we are fallible human beings, and asks only that we be good people, and do tishuevah (sorry….Hebrew word, not sure how to spell it out in English) when we fall short.

These are two different belief systems, based on the difference between the two different religions.

(As far as your posting of the Gospel, clearly intended to educate me, I didn’t watch it. I took a course on it in college, and that was enough. It is not part of my religion, but I took the class just to be informed about what Christians believe.)

I absolutely agree with you that God knows we are not perfect, and this is a fallen world. Where we differ is in our belief on what God wants. I was going to elaborate, but I won't say anything more, because I don't ever want to persist in trying to have a discussion or exchange of ideas if the other person doesn't want to. I might actually start a new thread on something that our conversation here brought to my mind, something that I believe is very important. (I won't do it today, but maybe sometime in the next day or two.)

 

[BreezeWood]

I absolutely agree with you that God knows we are not perfect, and this is a fallen world.

for the other beings on planet earth such is not the case to the extent to harm the heavenly creation they were given to live in -

no doubt the unraveling of noah's parable in the 1st century must be overcome for humanities chance for success to be realized, bringing back to life what was crucified is surly no simple task.

 

[Mashmont]

Would you say that all human beings are equally valuable? I'm not talking about this from the perspective of society. When we look at this world and all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history, I think it's safe to say that most people don't believe that all lives are equally valuable. But of course people aren't the source of objective truth. So my question is, what do you believe the actual truth is, in regard to human value? Would you say that all lives are inherently equal in value?

If your answer is yes, please explain why you believe that. If your answer is no, please explain why you believe that, and what things determine human value, in your view.

I'll start. I believe that all lives are equally valuable. Why, because as a Christian I believe that God is the source of actual truth, and in God's eyes we all have equal value. We were all created by God, we were all created in the image of God, and from a Christian perspective, Jesus (who was God in the flesh) died not just for some people, but for ALL people, whoever receives that gift of salvation, by faith.

This reminds me of a really good analogy about life being like a play... It's all temporary, and at the end of the day, things like money, social status, or anything else that society values ultimately means nothing. Why, because when the play is over, all the temporary things are gone and there is no difference between a Prince and a Pauper, in God's eyes.

I'll see if I can find that clip I'm thinking of, and if I do, I'll post it. But for now, what is your answer to this question?

All lives are equally valuable. Everyone has a chance at greatness and of sainthood.

 

[Leo123]

I’m interested to hear what you think the value of individuals who lie, cheat, steal, assault, batter, or otherwise commit crimes both moral and legal is.

If done with no empathy that kind of behavior reflects physical mental illness.