Both sides of the coin

[Quantum Windbag]

Seriously though, what us the point of playing nice? Do you actually think you can change the minds of anyone here? I came from a over-regulated site (so did you boop), where abusing others and name-calling was not allowed. Nothing gets accomplished there either. Most people know that I don't shy away from calling people names and generally being obnoxious, but I'm not that way in real life so I don't worry about it. Call an asfedora an asfedora or worse. It really makes no difference and if someone takes things said on an internet message board seriously well, that's their problem isn't it?

As far as the ignore button well, that works if you only care for those discussions in which people either agree with you or won't offend your delegate sensibilities. I only have one person on ignore and that is because his complete inability to post anything in the least interesting can't make up for his obnoxious overuse of smilies.

Just my opinion.

I would rather "play nice" and enjoy a conversation with someone and maybe learn something EGADS!! than be trying to outwit them in a name-calling spree. Probably, because I suck at name-calling, but I rather enjoy learning something new.

Immie

You also never delve into self righteousness by hiding your contempt behind a veil. You have good manners, and set an example for others by never demanding the conform to your standards.

 

[PredFan]

Some things make me seriously angry. Blood boiling, (virtual) wall punching angry. Sometimes I'm willing to express those feelings in an understated manner but sometimes I let loose. Then people say I've changed. But I haven't changed. I'm conscious of the dangers associated with hyperbole -- danger to the atmosphere, danger to the goals one ostensibly favors and danger to one's own cognitive processes -- so I take some care. And usually I enjoy calm discussions, often with an element of rigor. But sometimes I enjoy lobbing hand grenades. It's not a change. There's a time for every purpose.

You know, I'd be more inclined to believe that if it wasn't for your avatar.

There's a time for every lolcat.

So what you are saying is that your avatar turns into my avatar sometimes?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Except real debate is not supposed to be about starting a fight, and it is not supposed to be about demonizing a person, it's supposed to be about vigorously defending your ideas/ideals by applying logic and at the same time, deconstructing the ideas/ ideals of your opponent by using logic as well.

Two great debators should be able to shake hands before and after a really rough and rugged debate and not think ill of each other.

An opponent is not an enemy.

Making someone else the "demon" just because he does not share your ideology or culture is the cheap way out, imo. It requires the least energy of all. So, essentially, trolls are lazy asses.

For instance, Tank wrote this:



Instead of attacking the idea, he attacked the person. That is the cheap way out. And notice the Nazi who thanked him for his input. That speaks volumes.

Hey, @Tank, instead of attacking a person, why not bring some information to the table?

To HELL with Political Correctness.............When Ideals are so opposite, there is WAR........And in a War of words there will be mean things said and mud slinging. It's the nature of the beast..............

There is a divide in this country...........A line in the sand of opposing positions....Both sides dedicated to their core principles............In the fight, feelings will get hurt and words will be said...............

Tank's comments aren't wrong..........He believes that the Liberal mindset escapes REALITY...........and I agree....................

Should PC demand that he shouldn't say that.........It is his opinion, and I agree.........I post based on beliefs, REALITY, logic, and Reason..............NOT EMOTION...........and thus the divide............

Politeness is not Political Correctness. Understand this and your posts will be worth reading. You appear to value reason over emotion. Good! Abuse is occasioned by emotion and will not be resorted to by the reasonable.

If you cannot express your emotions you will never be reasonable.

 

[Amelia]

Some things make me seriously angry. Blood boiling, (virtual) wall punching angry. Sometimes I'm willing to express those feelings in an understated manner but sometimes I let loose. Then people say I've changed. But I haven't changed. I'm conscious of the dangers associated with hyperbole -- danger to the atmosphere, danger to the goals one ostensibly favors and danger to one's own cognitive processes -- so I take some care. And usually I enjoy calm discussions, often with an element of rigor. But sometimes I enjoy lobbing hand grenades. It's not a change. There's a time for every purpose.

Have you ever stopped and asked why these things make you angry, Amelia? Have you ever tried to analyze them and figure out exactly what pushed your emotional buttons?

Because understanding what makes you so angry gives you a means to control your own reaction.

As far as I am concerned the #1 thing that ticks me off is when I know that someone is deliberately lying to me. I am one of those people who refuses to lie even to myself. So when people are trying to deceive me it can get me riled up. But instead of punching the walls I back off and go for a walk and think about it for a while. Then I come up with a strategy to deal with the liar and the lies in a calm and rational manner instead.

That is probably the #1 thing which ticks me off too. Unfortunately the liar who most consistently makes my blood boil is Obama, so there's not much I can do about it. So I sometimes choose to vent about him, about the people who support him, and about the conditions which enabled him to be in a position where he can do so much harm.

p.s., I don't actually punch walls. I do sometimes go hug a cat.

 

[Amelia]

You know, I'd be more inclined to believe that if it wasn't for your avatar.

There's a time for every lolcat.

So what you are saying is that your avatar turns into my avatar sometimes?

Yes! Now you got it!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Honestly ... No Offense Gracie ... You have a good heart, as well as Boop 85% of the time and almost always Cabbie.
It is just that somehow people think sugar-coating the ill things they say and feel towards others somehow makes it different than what they mean ... It doesn't.

If someone wants to be ugly ... It doesn't matter what their intentions are or how they say it ... They are still being ugly.
The only thing that is really different is that they are being ugly and self-righteous at the same time.

If you want to start a fight ... Expect to get hit ... And don't cry when you do.

.

Except real debate is not supposed to be about starting a fight, and it is not supposed to be about demonizing a person, it's supposed to be about vigorously defending your ideas/ideals by applying logic and at the same time, deconstructing the ideas/ ideals of your opponent by using logic as well.

Two great debators should be able to shake hands before and after a really rough and rugged debate and not think ill of each other.

An opponent is not an enemy.

Making someone else the "demon" just because he does not share your ideology or culture is the cheap way out, imo. It requires the least energy of all. So, essentially, trolls are lazy asses.

For instance, Tank wrote this:

You have reality on ignore

Instead of attacking the idea, he attacked the person. That is the cheap way out. And notice the Nazi who thanked him for his input. That speaks volumes.

Hey, @Tank, instead of attacking a person, why not bring some information to the table?

That would depend on what is meant by ‘information.’

For most on the right ‘information’ is nothing more than partisan dogma, devoid of facts or evidence.

And for most conservatives when confronted with the facts that demonstrate their dogma to be false, they respond with personal attacks, as they have nothing else.

The single most dogmatic poster on the board sees dogma every time he reads a post that disagrees with him, what a surprise.

By the way, have you ever acknowledged that something you said was wrong? Even once? Until you do, don't ever call another person on the fact that they never admit they are wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Seriously though, what us the point of playing nice? Do you actually think you can change the minds of anyone here? I came from a over-regulated site (so did you boop), where abusing others and name-calling was not allowed. Nothing gets accomplished there either. Most people know that I don't shy away from calling people names and generally being obnoxious, but I'm not that way in real life so I don't worry about it. Call an asfedora an asfedora or worse. It really makes no difference and if someone takes things said on an internet message board seriously well, that's their problem isn't it?

As far as the ignore button well, that works if you only care for those discussions in which people either agree with you or won't offend your delegate sensibilities. I only have one person on ignore and that is because his complete inability to post anything in the least interesting can't make up for his obnoxious overuse of smilies.

Just my opinion.

I suggest that everyone who posts on message boards wants, at some level, to be respected. At least respected and at best admired. Do you not think that you forfeit respect when you call people names and are 'generally being obnoxious'? This seems so obvious to me that I cannot understand why others find it so difficult to grasp this rather simple concept.

I suspect that you think I let other people determine my self worth. I submit to you that not everyone grew up being coddled by drooling idiots that never told them that they are wrong. All I have to say is that, if you think I am here because I want respect and admiration, is that you are a deluded asshole scumbag. If this cause you to loose respect for me, tough fucking shit. I see that as your problem, not mine. I am going to live, and continue to be exactly the same person I was before. You, on the other hand, allowed someone else to control what you think, and made yourself less free by letting someone you know nothing about control your beliefs.

Welcome to my world, idiot.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And wouldn't it be swell if we could just have this talk, rather than degenerating into partisan bullshit?

Ta.

The OP started with partisan bullshit.

That said, I have made my point, and no one has actually delved into why I refuse to let self rightness asswipes control me.

Please note, you aren't one of the self righteous asswipes, so don't take my comment personally.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I suggest that everyone who posts on message boards wants, at some level, to be respected. At least respected and at best admired. Do you not think that you forfeit respect when you call people names and are 'generally being obnoxious'? This seems so obvious to me that I cannot understand why others find it so difficult to grasp this rather simple concept.

I can grasp the concept just fine it's just that the concept doesn't necessarily reflect reality. I agree that there are those who wish to be respected, however I am not one of them and I know that there are a large number if people here who feel the way that I do. In addition, even though I probably get little respect from some people, I know that there are others that I do get respect from. It's a wash basically.

The people I call names and act obnoxious to are not people that I care what they think about me. In fact I learned a long time ago that you cannot control what others think and it is a waste of your time to try.

Some times I am embarrassed by people - not you as I recall - who are on the same side of an argument as me. On boards, as in personal contact, I find it necessary to distance myself from the abusive and the foul mouthed.

As your post above demonstrates you are perfectly able to express yourself intelligently and interestingly so why on earth would you deliberately descend from this high standard? Why emulate semi-literate oafs?

Does foul language fucking hurt your immature ego? Do you define yourself by how other assholes talk? Doesn't that indicate how stupid and dependent you are?

That proves that you have a problem, I suggest you find someone to slap your fact until you grow up.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Some things make me seriously angry. Blood boiling, (virtual) wall punching angry. Sometimes I'm willing to express those feelings in an understated manner but sometimes I let loose. Then people say I've changed. But I haven't changed. I'm conscious of the dangers associated with hyperbole -- danger to the atmosphere, danger to the goals one ostensibly favors and danger to one's own cognitive processes -- so I take some care. And usually I enjoy calm discussions, often with an element of rigor. But sometimes I enjoy lobbing hand grenades. It's not a change. There's a time for every purpose.

Have you ever stopped and asked why these things make you angry, Amelia? Have you ever tried to analyze them and figure out exactly what pushed your emotional buttons?

Because understanding what makes you so angry gives you a means to control your own reaction.

As far as I am concerned the #1 thing that ticks me off is when I know that someone is deliberately lying to me. I am one of those people who refuses to lie even to myself. So when people are trying to deceive me it can get me riled up. But instead of punching the walls I back off and go for a walk and think about it for a while. Then I come up with a strategy to deal with the liar and the lies in a calm and rational manner instead.

That is probably the #1 thing which ticks me off too. Unfortunately the liar who most consistently makes my blood boil is Obama, so there's not much I can do about it. So I sometimes choose to vent about him, about the people who support him, and about the conditions which enabled him to be in a position where he can do so much harm.

p.s., I don't actually punch walls. I do sometimes go hug a cat.

Your poor kitties!

I never get upset about politicians lying to me because I expect it of them. Call it the nature of the beast. I recall some of the cops I know telling me that they knew Clinton was lying when he wagged his finger and said he did not have sex. So I wondered how they knew that and I started studying their techniques. Now when I saw Governor Christie claiming that he was "shocked" and "humiliated" the other day I could tell that he was lying too.

So since I can now tell when politicians are lying it doesn't have any impact on me. It is only when I am lied to by people that I trust to be honest and open with me that I still have that reaction.

But let's get back to your example. If I wanted to I could start a thread quoting Christie and explaining each of his lies and the inconsistencies that expose them as lies. But that would presume that I am invested enough in him to make that case. Up until this point he was definitely by preferred choice of GOP candidate for 2016 but since we have 3 years still to go I just don't care enough to bother. In your shoes I would do the same thing about Obama since it would be my way of venting. But that is just me. You have your own coping strategy. Such as stalking your unsuspecting cats and pouncing on them to give them a instead.

Peace
DT

 

[Quantum Windbag]

<snipped>

I guess the bottom line I would like to ask any trolls who are willing to be honest - what do you tell yourself that makes such antisocial behavior acceptable, in your mind.

Any educated guesses, links and/or articles from non-trolls are welcome as well.

@Statistikhengst
@Derideo_Te

That's a great question. What makes people take on such a persona and commit such energy to maintaining it? It would be interesting to hear from some of the people who do this, if they would be willing to break character long enough to explain honestly.

It is a lot easier to treat people with contempt than unfailing politeness. I guess that means I am lazy.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Honestly ... No Offense Gracie ... You have a good heart, as well as Boop 85% of the time and almost always Cabbie.
It is just that somehow people think sugar-coating the ill things they say and feel towards others somehow makes it different than what they mean ... It doesn't.

If someone wants to be ugly ... It doesn't matter what their intentions are or how they say it ... They are still being ugly.
The only thing that is really different is that they are being ugly and self-righteous at the same time.

If you want to start a fight ... Expect to get hit ... And don't cry when you do.

.

But is there really a fight?

Who is it that wants a fight and what exactly are they fighting about?

The best way to win a fight is not to have one in the first place. If you can turn enemies into friends then you have already won the fight without anyone getting hurt.

Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
Abraham Lincoln

Anger and rage are the emotions that drive people to fight.

Reason and logic are what enable us to live together in peace and harmony.

What emotion is driving We the People towards fighting one another?

What is the source of that emotion?

Who is behind it and what is their motivation towards feeding that rage and anger?

Those are the questions that reasonable and logical people should be asking ourselves.

The answers could easily result in uniting We the People instead of dividing us.

Excellent points!! What is to be gained by keeping us at each other's throats? Then we won't be looking at what is actually happening with the man behind the curtain. We won't be holding Washington responsible, and they can quite literally get away with murder while aiming us at each other.

It isn't anger that brings out the worst in me, it is willful ignorance and stupidity. If people react with anger to me exposing their unwillingness to learn I consider it a win, it is much better to get a negative reaction than let them go along and continue in ignorance. Praising them for their lack of critical thinking skills only makes it worse.

 

[Pogo]

To HELL with Political Correctness.............When Ideals are so opposite, there is WAR........And in a War of words there will be mean things said and mud slinging. It's the nature of the beast..............

There is a divide in this country...........A line in the sand of opposing positions....Both sides dedicated to their core principles............In the fight, feelings will get hurt and words will be said...............

Tank's comments aren't wrong..........He believes that the Liberal mindset escapes REALITY...........and I agree....................

Should PC demand that he shouldn't say that.........It is his opinion, and I agree.........I post based on beliefs, REALITY, logic, and Reason..............NOT EMOTION...........and thus the divide............

Politeness is not Political Correctness. Understand this and your posts will be worth reading. You appear to value reason over emotion. Good! Abuse is occasioned by emotion and will not be resorted to by the reasonable.

If you cannot express your emotions you will never be reasonable.

If you cannot express anything but, you'll be even worse.

 

[Amelia]

<snipped>

I guess the bottom line I would like to ask any trolls who are willing to be honest - what do you tell yourself that makes such antisocial behavior acceptable, in your mind.

Any educated guesses, links and/or articles from non-trolls are welcome as well.

@Statistikhengst
@Derideo_Te

That's a great question. What makes people take on such a persona and commit such energy to maintaining it? It would be interesting to hear from some of the people who do this, if they would be willing to break character long enough to explain honestly.

It is a lot easier to treat people with contempt than unfailing politeness. I guess that means I am lazy.

I stopped posting in the CDZ because it would have required too much work to figure out how to deal with people who deserve contempt when you know and they know that they've found a shelter from the kind of reaction they deserve.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have been doing exactly that.

I'm not sure you're in the class of poster I'm thinking about. At least I don't remember you being that way.

Yeah, I freely admit to being obnoxious on a regular basis.

As do I, and I insist on my right to be emotional about things, and show that emotion my way. There are opinions out there that only deserve contempt, and trying to pretend I don't feel that way is dishonest. I occasionally let my contempt for an opinion spill onto the person who expresses it, but I am more than willing to accept anyone, even people with contemptible opinions, as a friend if they don't take my insults personally.

 

[Pogo]

I can grasp the concept just fine it's just that the concept doesn't necessarily reflect reality. I agree that there are those who wish to be respected, however I am not one of them and I know that there are a large number if people here who feel the way that I do. In addition, even though I probably get little respect from some people, I know that there are others that I do get respect from. It's a wash basically.

The people I call names and act obnoxious to are not people that I care what they think about me. In fact I learned a long time ago that you cannot control what others think and it is a waste of your time to try.

Some times I am embarrassed by people - not you as I recall - who are on the same side of an argument as me. On boards, as in personal contact, I find it necessary to distance myself from the abusive and the foul mouthed.

As your post above demonstrates you are perfectly able to express yourself intelligently and interestingly so why on earth would you deliberately descend from this high standard? Why emulate semi-literate oafs?

Does foul language fucking hurt your immature ego? Do you define yourself by how other assholes talk? Doesn't that indicate how stupid and dependent you are?

That proves that you have a problem, I suggest you find someone to slap your fact until you grow up.

Fucking does your own fucking language fucking not fucking bestow a fucking clue that fucking the immaturity and fucking anger is fucking on your own fucking end? Do fucking you define your fucking self by how many fucking times you can fucking insert the word fucking into a post? I fucking suggest you fucking find somefuckingone to fucking "slap your fucking fact" (whatever the fuck that means) until you grow the fuck up. Because all you do with this juvenile shit is look stupid. In a fucking kind of way.

More to the point of this thread -- why would any human being be the tiniest bit interested in what you "suggest", after the way you just berated them?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Excellent points!! What is to be gained by keeping us at each other's throats? Then we won't be looking at what is actually happening with the man behind the curtain. We won't be holding Washington responsible, and they can quite literally get away with murder while aiming us at each other.

polarization has set in. and is going to be something that is real hard to break. the real problem is politicians no longer have minds for themselves. in Washington, you either tow the party line or you are out. Not every democrat believes in gun control and not every republican believes in preventing gay marriage. but the problem is partisan politics force politicians to support the party line. and that is what leads to the public galvanizing to the right or left. as soon as an issue you are very passionate about becomes a topic of discussion you are pushed to either the right or left, because you know one part is going to fully support you or oppose you. There is no middle ground

@Spoonman

As very strongly evidenced by the disappearance of Blue Dog DEMS and Rockefeller Republicans. Another two more blue dogs announced their retirements in the last days.

And just to think: in 1976, Ronald Reagan, in a parliamentary trick at the GOP national convention, went out of his way to pick the man who would be his running-mate, were he to secure the nomination and take it away from incumbent Pres. Gerald R. Ford. That man's name: Richard Schweiker, a LIBERAL Republican from the state of Pennsylvania. Reagan went so far as to force a vote on the floor to force Ford to declare his running mate before the balloting for the Presidential nomination, a move that lost, but gave the convention the "look" of a 2nd ballot nomination. It also, of course, forced the nomination, which Ford won by around 100 delegates, to go way into the night.

I will say that again: just 38 years ago, the man whom many Conservatives consider the greatest Conservative icon of all time WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to select a decidedly liberal running mate at the Convention. Back then, Ronald Reagan calculated that this would be to his advantage, and not to his detriment.

Not only is that utter irony of history, but also shows how much we have changed as a nation in 2 generations.

It amazes me how assholes keep conflating Reagan with conservative movement.

By the way, who was the Vice President under Reagan again? Am I supposed to see a parliamentary maneuver as proof of the real Reagan? If so, it shows me that, at heart, he was a politician first and foremost, not an actor.

Come to think of it, that might explain why he was president of SAG.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I suggest that everyone who posts on message boards wants, at some level, to be respected. At least respected and at best admired. Do you not think that you forfeit respect when you call people names and are 'generally being obnoxious'? This seems so obvious to me that I cannot understand why others find it so difficult to grasp this rather simple concept.

I can grasp the concept just fine it's just that the concept doesn't necessarily reflect reality. I agree that there are those who wish to be respected, however I am not one of them and I know that there are a large number if people here who feel the way that I do. In addition, even though I probably get little respect from some people, I know that there are others that I do get respect from. It's a wash basically.

The people I call names and act obnoxious to are not people that I care what they think about me. In fact I learned a long time ago that you cannot control what others think and it is a waste of your time to try.

So given that verbal abuse is counterproductive to making reasoned ponts, you're saying your purpose here is not to make any particular argumentative point, but to feel good about yourself by abusing others. Which I think is what the OP wants to explain -- why that would be a goal at all.

And wouldn't it be swell if we could just have this talk, rather than degenerating into partisan bullshit?

Ta.

Hmmm, isn't that what the Tea Room or Coffee Shop or whatever that thread is called, is for?

Absolutely not. Political talk is firmly verboten there. Same in the Tavern. Ask Libertarianman how that goes down. In both threads.

If you want to ask a troll why they troll you should look in a mirror and ask yourself. Does it make you feel good, or do you just get off on being abused?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yeah, I freely admit to being obnoxious on a regular basis.

Hmmm, I should pay closer attention. However, I was referring to seriously hateful personas -- like the kinds of people who say they are against abortion unless the child in the womb is mixed race. Or to think of a non-nazi/KKK example: people who claim to be Muslim but who seem to be determined to increase tension between Muslims and non-Muslims just for grins.

Would just like to salute Amelia for being exactly the type of poster mentioned earlier who can be on the complete opposite side of the argument yet keep it both rational and respectful. Peterf as well.

Sometimes it just takes a reach-out. Get to know a poster off the boards in non-neg PMs, and surprisingly many turn out to be actually human.

Not always though -- like the negative side, it takes two.

You are half right.

Any poster that gets offended at bad language is not reasonable and logical.

Any poster that defines themselves by how other people react to them is not reasonable and logical.

Amelia is reasonable and logical, even when she is wrong. Peterf is just wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

An excellent question!

Because this topic isn't politically biased. As you have noted in your agreement with Boop. When I have to deal with partisan crap, it brings out the worst in me. People like that cannot be bargained with, cannot be reasoned with, and will never ever change their position. Why try? Just have fun I say.

Your position is admirable, I applaud you for that but that doesn't mean my position is wrong and while I give you kudos for your position and principles, I do not care to emulate them.

-- actually... yeah it does mean that.

No, it doesn't. Your turn.

Pogo is always right. When he is wrong he didn't actually say what he said, which just proves that he is exactly the kind of person that the OP is talking about,even as he sits there and self righteously blames others for his faults.