Desperate liberals still trying to pretend waterboarding and sleep deprivation is "torture"

[theDoctorisIn]

and instead just using emotional hyperbole about how evil the terrorists are.

So am I to glean that you don't think terrorists are evil?

You can "glean" whatever you want, but I said nothing of the sort.

 

[TemplarKormac]

One of the points is that they didn't get any useful information through torture.

Of course not. Gin it up as an ineffective tactic, then bring down those who used it to an effective means. What of those cases where it did get the needed information? Did it ever occur to you that the report left out those instances? If I recall, aids for the SSIC went over and sorted through 6 million pages of documentation, pretty easy to leave out things that would harm such a narrative that 'torture is ineffective.'

What makes you think there were any times that torture provided "the needed information"?

What makes you think there weren't? We can speculate all day, my friend.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

One of the points is that they didn't get any useful information through torture.

Of course not. Gin it up as an ineffective tactic, then bring down those who used it to an effective means. What of those cases where it did get the needed information? Did it ever occur to you that the report left out those instances? If I recall, aids for the SSIC went over and sorted through 6 million pages of documentation, pretty easy to leave out things that would harm such a narrative that 'torture is ineffective.'

What makes you think there were any times that torture provided "the needed information"?

What makes you think there weren't? We can speculate all day, my friend.

Or, you know - we could read the official report instead of speculating.

But since the official report says things you don't want to hear, I imagine that you'll just continue "speculating".

 

[Faun]

I see there's been a resurgence of the old, tired lie by the usual leftist fanatics, that the waterboarding and sleep deprivation our interrogators used on terrorist prisoners, was "torture".

Apparently enough time has gone by since this fib was refuted, that the liberals think they can start reciting it again as though it were true, without people remembering.

So, once again: Torture causes pain, damage, disfigurement, and even death. Some countries put people on racks and stretch their joints until they tear apart, Others put red-hot irons to people's arms, faces, or feet. Still others cut off fingers or toes one at a time.

Waterboarding, OTOH, is just putting someone flat on a board and pouring water into his mouth and nose. It's uncomfortable and even painful and can create fear of drowning. But no one drowns, and as soon as the water stops and the guy coughs it out of his mouth and nose, he's fine again within minutes.

Paying your taxes is painful, too, and can create fear of drowning (in debt) without end. And unlike waterboarding, it goes on forever, and comes back year after year. And paying taxes can cause as much sleep deprivation as our interrogators ever did, again continuing for months instead of a few days. I'd wager that a lot of American would prefer waterboarding on April 15 over paying taxes, if they could save the one-quarter of their pay that government takes in income taxes, excises, sales taxes etc. that keep nibbling away at everything they own without end.

"Waterboarding is torture" only to people who have never thought much about what torture really is... or even what waterboarding is.

And yet, in WWII waterboarding was classified as torture. What's your next baseless whine?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Refusing to read the report because you disagree with it is far from being "objective", it's actually the complete opposite.

So, you can suddenly read my mind. I just don't simply endorse one side of a story. Never have, never will. I don't agree with anything unless I have adequate means to base an opinion. It isn't that hard. Let me describe to you the dilemma I am in. One one side, I don't care how we got our information, those men aided or abetted terrorist activities, or carried them out directly. They deserve to be punished. On the other, I really am disturbed by the tactics used, surely there must have been another way. But then I recall as a child watching the events of 9/11 as they unfolded on television that morning in the classroom; men and women leaping to their deaths when all hope had been exhausted, ultimately ending with 3000 people dying.

There is a lot of emotion behind it, you're right. Because I bore witness to one of the greatest atrocities in American history.

 

[Faun]

Hmm, how about chaining a half naked man to a cold concrete slab long enough for him to die of hypothermia?

Who cares.

Umm ... we didn't gain any useful information.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Or, you know - we could read the official report instead of speculating.

An 'official' report would have been backed by both parties in the committee, but it was largely sponsored by one. All this amounts to is 'he said, she said.'

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Refusing to read the report because you disagree with it is far from being "objective", it's actually the complete opposite.

So, you can suddenly read my mind. I just don't simply endorse one side of a story. Never have, never will. I don't agree with anything unless I have adequate means to base an opinion. It isn't that hard. Let me describe to you the dilemma I am in. One one side, I don't care how we got our information, those men aided or abetted terrorist activities, or carried them out directly and they deserve to be punished. On the other, I really am disturbed by the tactics used, surely there must have been another way.

And yet you've been offering your "opinions" up and down this thread, with nothing to back them up.

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance?

 

[g5000]

The only desperate people in this picture are the Nazi wannabe's who are trying to convince themselves that waterboarding, slapping, walling, and beating prisoners is not torture.

Monsters.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Or, you know - we could read the official report instead of speculating.

An 'official' report would have been backed by both parties in the committee, but it was largely sponsored by one. All this amounts to is 'he said, she said.'

No one on the committee has said the report is untrue.

They've just said they don't think it should be released.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

The only desperate people in this picture are the Nazi wannabe's who are trying to convince themselves that waterboarding, slapping, walling, and beating prisoners is not torture.

Monsters.

Humanity is a disease, obviously.

 

[g5000]

We will always be plagued with Nazi sympathizers who are holocaust deniers, and now we have a new branch of torture deniers.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And yet you've been offering your "opinions" up and down this thread, with nothing to back them up.

So, am I not allowed to offer them unless I 'back them up'?

I don't need to. There's a difference between an opinion and assertion. If I want to 'back up' an opinion, I will.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

And yet you've been offering your "opinions" up and down this thread, with nothing to back them up.

So, am I not allowed to offer them unless I 'back them up'?

I don't need to. There's a difference between an opinion and assertion. If I want to 'back up' an opinion, I will.

You said:

So, you can suddenly read my mind. I just don't simply endorse one side of a story. Never have, never will. I don't agree with anything unless I have adequate means to base an opinion.

Do you really not see the contradiction?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

As to your pulling at emotional heartstrings by mentioning 9/11, you know that I was actually there, right?

I didn't watch it on TV, I watched it happen from two blocks away.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Do you really not see the contradiction?

Nope. You are cherrypicking my words. What is wrong with what I said? Basing an opinion on objective means is better than basing one on only one side of a story. I find such reasoning overly arbitrary and unnecessary. Disagree as you may, but that isn't going to change.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Do you really not see the contradiction?

Nope. You are cherrypicking my words. What is wrong with what I said? Basing an opinion on objective means is better than basing one on only one side of a story. I find such reasoning overly arbitrary and unnecessary. Disagree as you may, but that isn't going to change.

What is this "other side of the story" that you keep mentioning?

No one has said that the report isn't true.

 

[R.D.]

I see there's been a resurgence of the old, tired lie by the usual leftist fanatics, that the waterboarding and sleep deprivation our interrogators used on terrorist prisoners, was "torture".

Apparently enough time has gone by since this fib was refuted, that the liberals think they can start reciting it again as though it were true, without people remembering.

So, once again: Torture causes pain, damage, disfigurement, and even death. Some countries put people on racks and stretch their joints until they tear apart, Others put red-hot irons to people's arms, faces, or feet. Still others cut off fingers or toes one at a time.

Waterboarding, OTOH, is just putting someone flat on a board and pouring water into his mouth and nose. It's uncomfortable and even painful and can create fear of drowning. But no one drowns, and as soon as the water stops and the guy coughs it out of his mouth and nose, he's fine again within minutes.

Paying your taxes is painful, too, and can create fear of drowning (in debt) without end. And unlike waterboarding, it goes on forever, and comes back year after year. And paying taxes can cause as much sleep deprivation as our interrogators ever did, again continuing for months instead of a few days. I'd wager that a lot of American would prefer waterboarding on April 15 over paying taxes, if they could save the one-quarter of their pay that government takes in income taxes, excises, sales taxes etc. that keep nibbling away at everything they own without end.

"Waterboarding is torture" only to people who have never thought much about what torture really is... or even what waterboarding is.

No, wrong as usual. Water boarding is a war crime. That's why Japanese officers were hanged for doing exactly that.

Link?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Do you really not see the contradiction?

Nope. You are cherrypicking my words. What is wrong with what I said? Basing an opinion on objective means is better than basing one on only one side of a story. I find such reasoning overly arbitrary and unnecessary. Disagree as you may, but that isn't going to change.

You just said that you've based your opinions on nothing, in fact you seemed outraged that I'd ask you to back them up. Now you're claiming to base your opinions on "objective means" - what "objective means" are you referring to?

You have to make up your mind.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I didn't watch it on TV, I watched it happen from two blocks away.

So, does it make my experience less traumatizing? This isn't a competition. I saw people jumping from those building same as you did. My grandmother had to console a cohort who had parents in the area when the attacks occurred. They saw both planes go in. She prayed with a bunch of students in the department she worked in because they feared the worst for their loved one. She wouldn't tell me those things until I was older.