Don't blame the British, blame Ismail Enver, Pasha

[teddyearp]

So many threads always seem to go back to around and/or after the turn of the last century and have always seemed to bring up the same old things. We even have a sticky in this section for it:

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

But, what if Ismail Enver, Pasha never got the Ottoman Empire into WWI? I got this idea while learning about the oil interest in the region as well during WWI.

So, if the Ottoman Empire never joined the Germans in WWI, we might not have had; the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence and "Lawrence of Arabia", the Sykes-Pichot Agreement, the ever named Balfour Declaration, and (or nor) even the British and French Mandates. Granted, there was already a bit of Jewish 'return' or 'colonization' going on in the area before WWI, but . . .

Let's have some fun. I found an intelligent old thread somewhere else, but let's see if we can have some of that intelligent speculation here about this 'what if'.

Where would we be if the Ottomans never entered WWI? Would this section even exist, lol?

 

[Mindful]

So many threads always seem to go back to around and/or after the turn of the last century and have always seemed to bring up the same old things. We even have a sticky in this section for it:

The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

But, what if Ismail Enver, Pasha never got the Ottoman Empire into WWI? I got this idea while learning about the oil interest in the region as well during WWI.

So, if the Ottoman Empire never joined the Germans in WWI, we might not have had; the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence and "Lawrence of Arabia", the Sykes-Pichot Agreement, the ever named Balfour Declaration, and (or nor) even the British and French Mandates. Granted, there was already a bit of Jewish 'return' or 'colonization' going on in the area before WWI, but . . .

Let's have some fun. I found an intelligent old thread somewhere else, but let's see if we can have some of that intelligent speculation here about this 'what if'.

Where would we be if the Ottomans never entered WWI? Would this section even exist, lol?

That war started as a war of alliances. And the British need not have entered it, other than a fear of the Germans commandeering the North Sea and Channel naval ports.

One could trace the whole thing back to the student assassinating Arch Duke Ferdinand. If that had not happened........

 

[teddyearp]

The British and Germans were posturing for a war for a bit before the assassination. The Ottoman empire need not have entered it, but they did. However, the world was learning how important oil was becoming to military power as well. The British may have ended up otherwise dragging the Ottomans into the war as they were also trying to secure oil in Persia at the time as well.

But what about southern Syria? Sure, the Jews were trying to return there, but I wonder where we would be now if there was never a Balfour Declaration. Would it have happened as fast and/or with as many people? Would there even have been trouble in Safed and Hebron? Maybe the whole process would have been much slower and maybe even more peaceful.

Thoughts?

 

[louie888]

The British and Germans were posturing for a war for a bit before the assassination. The Ottoman empire need not have entered it, but they did. However, the world was learning how important oil was becoming to military power as well. The British may have ended up otherwise dragging the Ottomans into the war as they were also trying to secure oil in Persia at the time as well.

But what about southern Syria? Sure, the Jews were trying to return there, but I wonder where we would be now if there was never a Balfour Declaration. Would it have happened as fast and/or with as many people? Would there even have been trouble in Safed and Hebron? Maybe the whole process would have been much slower and maybe even more peaceful.

Thoughts?

Yes, thoughts... stay in our damned diaspora until G-d and only He return us in peace to our promised land.

 

[teddyearp]

Yes, thoughts... stay in our damned diaspora until G-d and only He return us in peace to our promised land.

G-d works in mysterious ways. Who's to say that it wasn't the hand of G-d that has brought us to where we are now?

I recently had a life change that had me move 1,500 miles across country without knowing how or what I would do. Looking back, it could only have been the hand of G-d that made all the doors open and close that have made it a very successful move.

But do you actually have any intelligent thoughts on the actual subject of this thread?

 

[louie888]

Yes, thoughts... stay in our damned diaspora until G-d and only He return us in peace to our promised land.

G-d works in mysterious ways. Who's to say that it wasn't the hand of G-d that has brought us to where we are now?

I recently had a life change that had me move 1,500 miles across country without knowing how or what I would do. Looking back, it could only have been the hand of G-d that made all the doors open and close that have made it a very successful move.

But do you actually have any intelligent thoughts on the actual subject of this thread?

He can be as mysterious as He wants, but no way in hell does He want His kids from Europe stealing the holy land, let alone killing off his other kids in an outright slaughter for decades.

Moron!

 

[teddyearp]

He can be as mysterious as He wants, but no way in hell does He want His kids from Europe stealing the holy land, let alone killing off his other kids in an outright slaughter for decades.

Moron!

I know that reading and comprehension skills are not your best suite, but try to stay on topic. Otherwise deflect and spam another thread. That is something we all know you're very good at.

 

[Mindful]

Yes, thoughts... stay in our damned diaspora until G-d and only He return us in peace to our promised land.

G-d works in mysterious ways. Who's to say that it wasn't the hand of G-d that has brought us to where we are now?

I recently had a life change that had me move 1,500 miles across country without knowing how or what I would do. Looking back, it could only have been the hand of G-d that made all the doors open and close that have made it a very successful move.

But do you actually have any intelligent thoughts on the actual subject of this thread?

He can be as mysterious as He wants, but no way in hell does He want His kids from Europe stealing the holy land, let alone killing off his other kids in an outright slaughter for decades.

Moron!

I've noticed you peddle that same old line on any Jew topic you can get your hands on.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Magical things that hypothetically happened thousands of years ago serve no purpose today other than to justify violence and persecution. The people fighting over the barren strip of land that is "Israel" are fools.

 

[Mindful]

Magical things that hypothetically happened thousands of years ago serve no purpose today other than to justify violence and persecution. The people fighting over the barren strip of land that is "Israel" are fools.

And here's another one.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Magical things that hypothetically happened thousands of years ago serve no purpose today other than to justify violence and persecution. The people fighting over the barren strip of land that is "Israel" are fools.

And here's another one.

You forgot to address the OP and comment on the British and Ottoman empire's effect on... on whatever

Make sure to omit magical beliefs in your response if you're trying to pretend either side has a real argument.

 

[teddyearp]

You forgot to address the OP <snip>

It was you that forgot to address the OP.

 

[waltky]

Balfour articulated the British desire for the establishment of “a national home for the Jewish people”...

The Balfour Declaration still divides the Middle East 100 years later
November 2,`17 - In a year brimming with profoundly symbolic centennials, Thursday marks perhaps the most politically fraught one. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will appear in London alongside his British counterpart, Theresa May, to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, a 67-word missive from Britain’s then-foreign secretary expressing his government's support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

The Nov. 2, 1917, public letter was written by Lord Arthur Balfour to Baron Walter Rothschild, the head of the British wing of the influential European Jewish banking family. Balfour articulated the British desire for the establishment of “a national home for the Jewish people” and promised that his government would “facilitate the achievement of this object.” It would take three further decades — and a great deal more politicking and bloodshed — before Israel declared independence in 1948. But the Balfour Declaration is held up as a seminal event, the first formal utterance of the modern Israeli state’s right to exist (though some historians quibble that a “national home” is not the same thing as a state). For that reason, it is also bitterly regarded by many Palestinians as the first instrument of their dispossession. In 1917, Jews made up less than 10 percent of Palestine’s population — a century later, they are now the majority, while millions of Palestinians live in exile or in refugee camps. Protests are planned in the Palestinian territories to mark the centennial.

For many Israelis, the centennial is something to celebrate — especially on British soil. It was partially thanks to the efforts of a coterie of Britain-based Zionists, particularly Russian-born chemist Chaim Weizmann, that Balfour and his government were persuaded to eventually seek a colonial mandate for Palestine as Western powers carved up the crumbling Ottoman Empire. “I am proud of Britain’s part in creating Israel,” wrote British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson in a column for the Sunday Telegraph. But the occasion is a bit more awkward for the British prime minister, who is expected to spar with Netanyahu over the Israeli leader’s hawkish line on the Iran nuclear deal. Meanwhile, May’s chief opponent, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, is known for his pro-Palestinian sympathies and has opted against attending the Thursday dinner commemorating the Balfour Declaration. His hesitance is not unique: A recent survey found that only 17 percent of Britons hold favorable views of Israel.

A photo taken in 1925 and obtained from the Israeli Government Press Office on Oct. 24, shows a copy of the Balfour Declaration.​

Across Europe, there’s a great deal of support for the recognition of an independent Palestinian state amid anger at the policies of Netanyahu’s right-wing government, which is expanding Israeli settlements in the West Bank while maintaining a stifling military occupation over the Palestinian territories. Critics point to a line in Balfour’s letter that “nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine” — a stipulation that doesn’t seem to have been followed amid the conflicts and upheavals that came after. “The Balfour declaration is not something to be celebrated — certainly not while one of the peoples affected continues to suffer such injustice,” wrote Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas in a column published this week in the Guardian. “The creation of a homeland for one people resulted in the dispossession and continuing persecution of another — now a deep imbalance between occupier and occupied. The balance must be redressed, and Britain bears a great deal of responsibility in leading the way. Celebrations must wait for the day when everyone in this land has freedom, dignity and equality.”

Palestinian protesters burn a banner of Balfour, British and Israeli flags during a protest in the city of Bethlehem​

Israeli officials liken the Palestinian refusal to accept the declaration as evidence of their broader rejection of Israel. “The vehement Palestinian Arab opposition to the Balfour Declaration was and has remained rooted in the anti-historical view that Jews were aliens, with no connection to the land and no right of any kind to live there as a people,” wrote top Israeli diplomat Yuval Rotem. “This spawned an Arab exclusivism and sense of supremacy, which continues to drive the Arab-Israel conflict to this day.” Of course, the motives driving Balfour, an influential Conservative statesman who briefly served as prime minister, had as much to do with geopolitics as any abiding sympathy for the Zionist plight. On an earlier visit to the region, he described Palestine as a “dolorous country on the whole” and Jerusalem as a “miserable ghetto, derelict and without dignity.”

MORE

 

[teddyearp]

But, what if the Pasha never drug the Ottoman empire into WWI? The British and French would not have ended up so easily with any authority over the middle east, therefore would the Balfour Declaration even happened or been possible?

 

[montelatici]

UK must apologise for the Balfour Declaration & lead peace efforts in Palestine
We call on Her Majesty’s Government to openly apologise to the Palestinian people for issuing the Balfour Declaration. The colonial policy of Britain between 1917-1948 led to mass displacement of the Palestinian nation.

Archived Petition: UK must apologise for the Balfour Declaration & lead peace efforts in Palestine

 

[Mindful]

But, what if the Pasha never drug the Ottoman empire into WWI? The British and French would not have ended up so easily with any authority over the middle east, therefore would the Balfour Declaration even happened or been possible?

Factor in WW2, and all that went with it.

 

[Mindful]

UK must apologise for the Balfour Declaration & lead peace efforts in Palestine
We call on Her Majesty’s Government to openly apologise to the Palestinian people for issuing the Balfour Declaration. The colonial policy of Britain between 1917-1948 led to mass displacement of the Palestinian nation.

Archived Petition: UK must apologise for the Balfour Declaration & lead peace efforts in Palestine

Well well.....