Dubai's free market capitalism

[Shogun]

Wow you have poor translation skills. NO. The DOERS get richer the DO NOTHINGS get poorer. There's a difference.

You think the Lords laboured/worked more than the peasants?

Are you fucking retarded?

A) we don't have lords in this country. Unless you're talking about jolly old england in which case that would be apples to oranges.

B) It isn't about how hard you work. I'm not saying everyone should do back breaking labor for 50 hours a week to get ahead. People need to start working smarter not 'harder'.

oh yea, dude. Tell that to a fucking 55 year old lathe worker who just lost his job. I mean, what's stopping him from learning Java and becoming and beginning his lucrative web design career, right?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

it doesnt take an encyclopedia shogun. i was in shanghi and nanjing in 2002.

i dont think any of those buildings are public. the people FLOODING the streets below are paid in cash by companies and individuals, and the occasional lamborghini gave the rest away. there is certainly capitalism thriving in china.

i was there on business, fancy that.

There were busnesses happening in East Germany in 1977 too. Imaging that.


Again, go ahead and let Britannica know about their errors. Clearly, state owned enterprises are a half step away from entrepreneurial ownership.

The government established diplomatic relations with the U.S. in 1979. Since the late 1970s the economy has been moving from central planning and state-run industries to a mixture of state-owned and private enterprises in manufacturing and services, in the process growing dramatically and transforming Chinese society.

China -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Third paragraph, near the end

.

 

[Bern80]

You think the Lords laboured/worked more than the peasants?

Are you fucking retarded?

A) we don't have lords in this country. Unless you're talking about jolly old england in which case that would be apples to oranges.

B) It isn't about how hard you work. I'm not saying everyone should do back breaking labor for 50 hours a week to get ahead. People need to start working smarter not 'harder'.

oh yea, dude. Tell that to a fucking 55 year old lathe worker who just lost his job. I mean, what's stopping him from learning Java and becoming and beginning his lucrative web design career, right?

Good question. You tell me.

Look at your premise Shogun. Oh woe is me the poor worker that lost his job. You're the one that keeps saying things don't happen in a vacuum. The guys job didn't just disappear. There are reasons behind it. In the case of a lathe worker, my guess would be his skills aren't as valuabel as they once were. Think about the ramifiactons of your position for once. Your bummed this lathe worker got laid off. Maybe he got laid off because their isn't as much demand for his skill anymore. Maybe people aren't buyng things made with lathes. In your world is the company suppossed to keep him employed anyway even though he isnt doing anything of value for them? Do you propose they keep paying him to make something no one is buying? FUCKING BRILLIANT Shogun. Is it realistic to be under the delusion that you get to set the value of your skill set in stone and it can never change despite what the market says? You aren't helping people by making excuses for them to remain perpetually stupid. When YOU choose how you are going to make your living YOU choose the consequences of that. One of them may be that your skills will not retain the value they had when you started. And yes, you may have to learn how to do somethine else.

 

[Shogun]

The role of the government

China has been a socialist country since 1949, and, for nearly all of that time, the government has played a predominant role in the economy. In the industrial sector, for example, the state long owned outright nearly all of the firms producing China’s manufacturing output. The proportion of overall industrial capacity controlled by the government has gradually declined, although heavy industries have remained largely state owned. In the urban sector the government has set the prices for key commodities, determined the level and general distribution of investment funds, prescribed output targets for major enterprises and branches, allocated energy resources, set wage levels and employment targets, run the wholesale and retail networks, and controlled financial policy and the banking system. The foreign trade system became a government monopoly in the early 1950s. In the countryside from the mid-1950s, the government prescribed cropping patterns, set the level of prices, and fixed output targets for all major crops.

By the early 21st century much of the above system was in the process of changing, as the role of the central government in managing the economy was reduced and the role of both private initiative and market forces increased. Nevertheless, the government continued to play a dominant role in the urban economy, and its policies on such issues as agricultural procurement still exerted a major influence on performance in the rural sector.

The effective exercise of control over the economy requires an army of bureaucrats and a highly complicated chain of command, stretching from the top down to the level of individual enterprise. The Chinese Communist Party reserves the right to make broad decisions on economic priorities and policies, but the government apparatus headed by the State Council assumes the major burden of running the economy. The State Planning Commission and the Ministry of Finance also are concerned with the functioning of virtually the entire economy.

The entire planning process involves considerable consultation and negotiation. The main advantage of including a project in an annual plan is that the raw materials, labour, financial resources, and markets are guaranteed by directives that have the force of law. In fact, however, a great deal of economic activity goes on outside the scope of the detailed plan, and the tendency has been for the plan to become narrower rather than broader in scope.

There are three types of economic activity in China: those stipulated by mandatory planning, those done according to indicative planning (in which central planning of economic outcomes is indirectly implemented), and those governed by market forces. The second and third categories have grown at the expense of the first, but goods of national importance and almost all large-scale construction have remained under the mandatory planning system. The market economy generally involves small-scale or highly perishable items that circulate within local market areas only. Almost every year brings additional changes in the lists of goods that fall under each of the three categories.

Operational supervision over economic projects has devolved primarily to provincial, municipal, and county governments. In addition, enterprises themselves are gaining increased independence in a range of activity. Overall, therefore, the Chinese industrial system contains a complex mixture of relationships. In general, the State Council exercises relatively tight control over resources deemed to be of core importance for the performance of the entire economy. Less-important aspects of the system are devolved to lower levels for detailed decisions and management. In all spheres, moreover, the need to coordinate units that are in different bureaucratic hierarchies produces a great deal of informal bargaining and consensus building.

Although the state controlled agriculture in the 1950s and ’60s, rapid changes were made in the system from the late 1970s. The major vehicles for dictating state priorities—the people’s communes and their subordinate teams and brigades—have been either abolished or vastly weakened. Peasant incentives have been raised both by price increases for state-purchased agricultural products and by permission to sell excess production on a free market. Greater freedom is permitted in the choice of what crops to grow, and peasants are allowed to contract for land that they will work, rather than simply working most of the land collectively. The system of procurement quotas (fixed in the form of contracts) is being phased out, although the state can still buy farm products and control surpluses in order to affect market conditions.

Economic policies

The First Five-Year Plan (1953–57) emphasized rapid industrial development, partly at the expense of other sectors of the economy. The bulk of the state’s investment was channeled into the industrial sector, while agriculture, which occupied more than four-fifths of the economically active population, was forced to rely on its own meagre capital resources for a substantial part of its fund requirements. Within industry, iron and steel, electric power, coal, heavy engineering, building materials, and basic chemicals were given first priority; in accordance with Soviet practice, the aim was to construct large, sophisticated, and highly capital-intensive plants. A great many of the new plants were built with Soviet technical and financial assistance, and heavy industry grew rapidly.

As the Second Five-Year Plan—which resembled its predecessor—got under way in 1958, the policy of the Great Leap Forward was announced. In agriculture this involved forming communes, abolishing private plots, and increasing output through greater cooperation and greater physical effort. In industry the construction of large plants was to continue, but it was to be supplemented by a huge drive to develop small industry, making use of a large number of small, simple, locally built and locally run plants. A spectacular drop in agricultural production ensued. Meanwhile, the indiscriminate backyard production drive failed to achieve the desired effects and yielded large quantities of expensively produced substandard goods. These difficulties were aggravated when Soviet aid and technicians were withdrawn. By late 1960 the country faced an economic crisis of the first order.

The authorities responded with a complete about-face in policy. Private plots were restored, the size of the communes was reduced, and greater independence was given to the production team. There was also a mass transfer of the unemployed industrial workers to the countryside, and industrial investment was temporarily slashed in order to free resources for farm production. The agricultural situation improved immediately, and by 1963 some resources were being redirected to the capital goods industry.

The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution began in 1966, but, unlike the Great Leap, it did not have an explicit economic philosophy. Nevertheless, industrial production was badly affected by the ensuing decade of confusion and strife, which also left some difficult legacies for the Chinese economy. In industry, wages were frozen and bonuses canceled. Combined with the policies of employing more workers than necessary to soak up unemployment and of never firing workers once hired, this action essentially eliminated incentives to work hard. In addition, technicians and many managers lost their authority and could not play an effective role in production in the wake of the movement. Overall output continued to grow, but capital-to-output ratios declined. In agriculture, per capita output in 1977 was no higher than in 1957.

Rural economic reform initiated after Mao Zedong began with major price increases for agricultural products in 1979. By 1981 the emphasis had shifted to breaking up collectively tilled fields into land that was contracted out to private families to work. During that time the size of private plots (land actually owned by individuals) was increased, and most restrictions on selling agricultural products in free markets were lifted. In 1984 much longer-term contracts for land were encouraged (generally 15 years or more), and the concentration of land through subleasing of parcels was made legal. In 1985 the government announced that it would dismantle the system of planned procurements with state-allocated production quotas in agriculture. Peasants who had stopped working the land were encouraged to find private employment in the countryside or in small towns. They did not obtain permission to move to major cities, however.

The basic thrusts of urban economic reform were toward integrating China more fully with the international economy; making enterprises responsible for their profits and losses; reducing the state’s role in directing, as opposed to guiding, the allocation of resources; shifting investment away from the metallurgical and machine-building industries and toward light and high-technology industries, while retaining an emphasis on resolving the energy, transportation, and communications bottlenecks; creating material incentives for individual effort and a consumer ethos to spur people to work harder; rationalizing the pricing structure; and putting individuals into jobs for which they have specialized training, skills, or talents. At the same time, the state has permitted a private sector to develop and has allowed it to compete with state firms in a number of service areas and, increasingly, in such larger-scale operations as construction.

A number of related measures were established to enhance the incentives for enterprise managers to increase the efficiency of their firms. Replacement of the profit-remission system with tax and contracting systems was designed to reward managers by permitting firms to retain a significant portion of increases in production. Managerial authority within firms was strengthened, and bonuses were restored and allowed to grow to substantial proportions. Managers also were given enhanced authority to hire, fire, and promote workers. Reductions in central government planning were accompanied by permission for enterprises to buy and sell surplus goods on essentially a free-market basis, and the prices thus obtained often were far higher than for goods produced to meet plan quotas. The state plan was also used to redirect some resources into the light industrial sector. The state, for example, has given priority in energy consumption to some light industrial enterprises that produce high-quality goods.

The reduction in the scope of mandatory planning is based on the assumption that market forces can more efficiently allocate many resources. This assumption in turn requires a rational pricing system that takes into account any and all extant technologies and scarcities. Because extensive subsidies were built into the economic system, however, price reform became an extremely sensitive issue. The fear of inflation also served as a constraint on price reform. Nevertheless, the fact that products produced in excess of amounts targeted in the plan can be sold, in most cases, at essentially free-market prices has created a two-tiered price system that is designed to wean the economy from the administratively fixed prices of an earlier era.

Efforts to create a freer labour market are also part of the overall stress on achieving greater efficiency. As with price reform, tampering with a system that keeps many citizens living more comfortably and securely than would an economically more rational system risks serious repercussions in relations with the public. Changes have proceeded slowly in this sensitive area.

A decision was made in 1978 to permit direct foreign investment in several small “special economic zones” along the coast. These zones were later increased to 14 coastal cities and three coastal regions. All of these places provided favoured tax treatment and other advantages for the foreign investor. Laws on contracts, patents, and other matters of concern to foreign businesses were also passed in an effort to attract international capital to aid China’s development. The largely bureaucratic nature of China’s economy, however, has posed inherent problems for foreign firms that want to operate in the Chinese environment, and China gradually has had to add more incentives to attract foreign capital.

The changes in China’s economic thinking and strategy since 1978 have been so great—with the potential repercussions for important vested interests so strong—that actual practice inevitably has lagged considerably behind declaratory policy. Notable during this period have been the swings in economic policy between an emphasis on market-oriented reforms and a return to at least partial reliance on centralized planning.



your link.

 

[Shogun]

A) we don't have lords in this country. Unless you're talking about jolly old england in which case that would be apples to oranges.

B) It isn't about how hard you work. I'm not saying everyone should do back breaking labor for 50 hours a week to get ahead. People need to start working smarter not 'harder'.

oh yea, dude. Tell that to a fucking 55 year old lathe worker who just lost his job. I mean, what's stopping him from learning Java and becoming and beginning his lucrative web design career, right?

Good question. You tell me.

IU invite you to go find one and ask him why his lazy ass can't seem to switch professions on the fly like your kind expect. After all, after a lifetime of doing what you do for a living why the hell SHOULDN'T you be expected to take a few courses and *poof* know how to build a fucking rocket engine?

 

[Shogun]

China -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia


MORE!


Manufacturing

Rolling mill at an iron and steel plant in Anshan, Liaoning province, China. [Credits : Greenhill/Black Star]The development of industry has been given considerable attention since the advent of the communist regime. Overall industrial output often has grown at an annual rate of more than 10 percent, and China’s industrial workforce probably exceeds the combined total for all other developing countries. Industry has surpassed all other sectors in economic growth and degree of modernization. Most heavy industries and products deemed to be of national strategic importance remain state-owned, but an increasing proportion of lighter and consumer-oriented manufacturing firms are privately held or are private-state joint ventures.

Finance

Headquarters of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, Hong Kong, designed by Norman … [Credits : Iam Lambot—Arcaid]China’s financial institutions are owned by the state. The principal instruments of fiscal and financial control are the People’s Bank of China and the Ministry of Finance, both subject to the authority of the State Council. The People’s Bank, which replaced the Central Bank of China in 1950 and gradually took over private banks, fulfills many of the functions of Western central and commercial banks. It issues the renminbi (yuan; the national currency), controls circulation, and plays an important role in disbursing budgetary expenditures. Furthermore, it handles the accounts, payments, and receipts of government organizations and other bodies, which enables it to exercise detailed supervision over their financial and general performance in the light of the state’s economic plans.

 

[Bern80]

oh yea, dude. Tell that to a fucking 55 year old lathe worker who just lost his job. I mean, what's stopping him from learning Java and becoming and beginning his lucrative web design career, right?

Good question. You tell me.

IU invite you to go find one and ask him why his lazy ass can't seem to switch professions on the fly like your kind expect. After all, after a lifetime of doing what you do for a living why the hell SHOULDN'T you be expected to take a few courses and *poof* know how to build a fucking rocket engine?

What is the alternative? Are you entitled to your job for life? Is your employer suppossed to not be able lay you off as market conditions warrant? Are entitled to be paid to make something no one is buying? For fuck's sake THINK, Shogun. You're damn right things don't happen in a vacuum and as rosy as it sounds to have 100% job security impretutiy without the risk of ever haveing to figure out how to do something else, there would be sever negative consequences to the practical implentation of such a system.

 

[Shogun]

Good question. You tell me.

IU invite you to go find one and ask him why his lazy ass can't seem to switch professions on the fly like your kind expect. After all, after a lifetime of doing what you do for a living why the hell SHOULDN'T you be expected to take a few courses and *poof* know how to build a fucking rocket engine?

Look at your premise Shogun. Oh woe is me the poor worker that lost his job. You're the one that keeps saying things don't happen in a vacuum. The guys job didn't just disappear. There are reasons behind it. In the case of a lathe worker, my guess would be his skills aren't as valuabel as they once were. Think about the ramifiactons of your position for once. Your bummed this lathe worker got laid off. Maybe he got laid off because their isn't as much demand for his skill anymore. Maybe people aren't buyng things made with lathes. In your world is the company suppossed to keep him employed anyway even though he isnt doing anything of value for them? Do you propose they keep paying him to make something no one is buying? FUCKING BRILLIANT Shogun. Is it realistic to be under the delusion that you get to set the value of your skill set in stone and it can never change despite what the market says? You aren't helping people by making excuses for them to remain perpetually stupid. When YOU choose how you are going to make your living YOU choose the consequences of that. One of them may be that your skills will not retain the value they had when you started. And yes, you may have to learn how to do somethine else.

Indeed, there are reasons behind it; your kind value cheap external labor over domestic tranquility. Did you think that people STOPPED working on lathes? Or, more likely, are you glossing over the value of such labor in relation to bottomed out prices of labor overseas? Your kind would rather import products from nations whose production labor isn't held as valuable as America once held its own production labor force.

Why buy American shoes when a sweatshop in China produces the same goods cheaper, right BE$N? Why preserve the domestic consuming potential of local citizens when some worker can be employed for a bowl of rice in China, RIGHT BE$N?

and yes, if a company enjoys the perks and bennies of marketing to our consumer base then they have an obligation to maintain that very consumer base. Anything less is parasitic. After all, it's not that people STOP BUYING shti made with lathes so much as it is your kind making excuses for selling out domestic labor for the sake of cheap foreign labor.


You can take your advice on how labor can benefit for the soup lines and food banks, homey. The reduction of America's SOL sits firmly on your shoulders. If you can't fathom YOUR employment being outsourced by a cheaper option then perhaps you should give advice on the fluidity of which you expect low skilled labor to leap onto java programming sparingly. Being "perpetually stupid" has nothing to do with undermined value of relative labor between domestic standards of living and those whose income expectations are molded by their "we LOVE beggars in the streets of calcutta" culture. See NAFTA. After all, no one begged for your kind to come and decide that production employment should no longer be as highly valued as it once was just because YOUR KIND make greater profits from chinese labor. Indeed, this is why your kind should take your fucking asses elsewhere instead of benefiting from THIS culture which you enjoy leaching off of like a tick on a dogs balls.

 

[Bern80]

Indeed, there are reasons behind it; your kind value cheap external labor over domestic tranquility. Did you think that people STOPPED working on lathes? Or, more likely, are you glossing over the value of such labor in relation to bottomed out prices of labor overseas? Your kind would rather import products from nations whose production labor isn't held as valuable as America once held its own production labor force.

No. We price labor at what its worth. It is based on your value to your emplyer. It is NOT based on the goal of figuring out what you need to live. You are still not getting it. Every useless rambling you make about how we like cheap labor or how we like to ship jobs overseas is based on the premise that the role of your employer is to provide for you. I know how much you would like to live in that world. But that isn't reality. The reasons you work for an employer are very specific. they are usually laid out in a contract. Usually they go something like if you do this, this and this for me I will give this much money, this health insurance, this amount of vaction etc. If you want it your way, grow some balls and try it. I dare you to walk into a job interview, tell them you want them to pay for all your shit and garunteed job security. Watch how fast you get laughed out of the fucking building.

I have said before their are two ways to increase your wealth: Reduce expenses or increase income. Jobs overseas reduces the cost of goods which reduces people's expenses. Keeping jobs here increases income. BOTH should increase people's disposabe income, right? WRONG. Legislation that American companies can only have stuff built in American by Americans only increases the income of the few workers of that company. It does nothing to reduce the expenses of the masses that you are trying to get to consumer your product. if anything it will probably force you to raise the price of your product. In your world the result is the same as what you claim it is in mine. People lose jobs. Because the company can't sell their product at the price they need to to make money and continue to employ people. They sit their treading water for the sake of your precious american jobs. All the while they are basically wasting their fucking time delaying the inevitable when that time could be better spent figuring out how to do something that is of value. When the lathe workers lose their jobs because you demand they be paid well and a now railing post costs $100 they can all write to you and say thank you fucking dip shit for wasting my time and costing me a job.

and yes, if a company enjoys the perks and bennies of marketing to our consumer base then they have an obligation to maintain that very consumer base. Anything less is parasitic. After all, it's not that people STOP BUYING shti made with lathes so much as it is your kind making excuses for selling out domestic labor for the sake of cheap foreign labor.

Right Shogun. Markets never change. I did just see a whole fleet of model T's on my way to work this morning. Yes people do stop buying many things. Are you familiar with the concept of a fad. Business' aren't stupid. They know they can't charge for something more than someone is willing to pay.

 

[Shogun]

No. We price labor at what its worth. It is based on your value to your emplyer. It is NOT based on the goal of figuring out what you need to live. You are still not getting it. Every useless rambling you make about how we like cheap labor or how we like to ship jobs overseas is based on the premise that the role of your employer is to provide for you. I know how much you would like to live in that world. But that isn't reality. The reasons you work for an employer are very specific. they are usually laid out in a contract. Usually they go something like if you do this, this and this for me I will give this much money, this health insurance, this amount of vaction etc. If you want it your way, grow some balls and try it. I dare you to walk into a job interview, tell them you want them to pay for all your shit and garunteed job security. Watch how fast you get laughed out of the fucking building.

Indeed, and when you open up the scope of the value of labor to include near-slave state labor WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE REPERCUSSIONS? Your kind would salivate over thrid world child labor if it weren't such a shitty PR move. Which, again, is why your kind should be launched off of the fucking island to go run your business in those very lands that allow you to undermine the value of American labor. go enjoy your dirty tap water, sparse safety and LIMITED CONSUMER BASE, dude. Do you think India's consuming potential rivals that of an AMERICA given comparative SOLs? go find out. I bet you'd be back within 5 years begging to protect the very consumer base you currently treat like a vampire does its latest bloodsack meatbag. After all, if you can't value to the protection of the very SOL which you take advantage of commercially then you have no reason to expect access to that very same consumer base that you otherwise toss away like a paper cup. speaking of one of us daring the other...



Right Shogun. Markets never change. I did just see a whole fleet of model T's on my way to work this morning. Yes people do stop buying many things. Are you familiar with the concept of a fad. Business' aren't stupid. They know they can't charge for something more than someone is willing to pay.



model Ts are still autos which, indeed, we DO SEE ON THE ROAD TODAY, IDIOT. As if you gain any credibility by bringing up the Auto industry given the pattern THAT sector has taken over the last 20 years.





cars sure are a fucking FAD, aren't they? Clearly, your kind seems to think that SOL supporting auto labor is, anyway. Hey, if a mexican will build a car cheaper than an AMERICAN then why preserve the very SOL which you expect to sell the fucking car to, RIGHT BE$N?

 

[Shogun]

Legislation that American companies can only have stuff built in American by Americans only increases the income of the few workers of that company.



riiiight right... as if those "few workers" don't exponentially factor into our economy by default given that THEY SPEND THEIR FUCKING INCOME IN THE UNITED STATES AS OPPOSED TO INDIA. sheesh.. and to think you parade around here acting like you have a clue about economics.

 

[Bern80]

Indeed, and when you open up the scope of the value of labor to include near-slave state labor WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE REPERCUSSIONS? Your kind would salivate over thrid world child labor if it weren't such a shitty PR move. Which, again, is why your kind should be launched off of the fucking island to go run your business in those very lands that allow you to undermine the value of American labor. go enjoy your dirty tap water, sparse safety and LIMITED CONSUMER BASE, dude. Do you think India's consuming potential rivals that of an AMERICA given comparative SOLs? go find out. I bet you'd be back within 5 years begging to protect the very consumer base you currently treat like a vampire does its latest bloodsack meatbag. After all, if you can't value to the protection of the very SOL which you take advantage of commercially then you have no reason to expect access to that very same consumer base that you otherwise toss away like a paper cup. speaking of one of us daring the other...

Your warped sense of reality can not be helped, obviously. Suffice it to say. If you don't want to work for slave wages, DON'T TAKE THE FUCKING JOB, MORON.

model Ts are still autos which, indeed, we DO SEE ON THE ROAD TODAY, IDIOT. As if you gain any credibility by bringing up the Auto industry given the pattern THAT sector has taken over the last 20 years.





cars sure are a fucking FAD, aren't they? Clearly, your kind seems to think that SOL supporting auto labor is, anyway. Hey, if a mexican will build a car cheaper than an AMERICAN then why preserve the very SOL which you expect to sell the fucking car to, RIGHT BE$N?

Pretending you don't understand the point is pretty cowardly Shogun. The point is that there are indeed things that were made before that are not in as heavy a demand as they once were. Typewriters I guess is a better example. As such we don't need as many people building typewriters as we once did. But in your world we're just suppossed to keep producing the same amount of typewriters for the sake of jobs , right? I think even your pea brain can understand what happens to a company and those precious workers you claim to care so much for when the company takes in less than it spends.

riiiight right... as if those "few workers" don't exponentially factor into our economy by default given that THEY SPEND THEIR FUCKING INCOME IN THE UNITED STATES AS OPPOSED TO INDIA. sheesh.. and to think you parade around here acting like you have a clue about economics.

What net effect have you had by increasing income when the cost of goods went up right along with it? You aren't so deluded as to believe that you've made comapnies pay all these people more money but the cost of goods isn't going to go up are you?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Sho speaks the truth of the proletariat

Bern parrots the rhetoric of the Bourgeois

 

[Bern80]

Sho speaks the truth of the proletariat

Bern parrots the rhetoric of the Bourgeois

So it is your contention that if we force all American companies to only employe American workers and force Americans to only buy American products. our SOL will be launched into the stratosphere?

I want SOL to rise as much as the next guym, but the above is Shogun's version of Utopia and you are both truly naive if you think our collective SOL will rise as a result.

Call my rhetoric what you want. The history of succes of a capitistic system over a socialistic one is on my side, not yours.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

So you think we can only enjoy a fine standard of living by exploiting poorer peoples? Nice justification- reminds me of the justifications for slavery.

 

[Bern80]

So you think we can only enjoy a fine standard of living by exploiting poorer peoples? Nice justification- reminds me of the justifications for slavery.

How poor will those same people be without us employing them? Secondly, let's get real for a moment. Shogun is grossly overstating this foreign labor issue. Our unemployment rate stands at a hair over 10% and it would rather disengenuos to believe that all 10% is from people that lost jobs overseas. But just for kicks let's call it that. Let's get wholly unreasonable and say we would have 0% unemployment if we didn't have all those jobs overseas. That STILL would translate to a country with one of, if not the, highest standards of living in the world employing 90% of it's labor force in it's own country. Keep in mind if we want to get real it's more than that. Despite the volume of things we import from overseas, somehow in decent economic times we manage to maintain single digit unemployment.

In short, no I am not saying we need to exploit poor people to raise our standard of living, because on the whole, we clearly aren't doing that now.

 

[Shogun]

Your warped sense of reality can not be helped, obviously. Suffice it to say. If you don't want to work for slave wages, DON'T TAKE THE FUCKING JOB, MORON.


YEA, Indentured servant! Even though jobs are finite and limited if you don't want to sign over 7 years of your fucking life then enjoy eating dirt and cobwebs! This is the AMERICA that BE$N wants to create.


Pretending you don't understand the point is pretty cowardly Shogun. The point is that there are indeed things that were made before that are not in as heavy a demand as they once were. Typewriters I guess is a better example. As such we don't need as many people building typewriters as we once did. But in your world we're just suppossed to keep producing the same amount of typewriters for the sake of jobs , right? I think even your pea brain can understand what happens to a company and those precious workers you claim to care so much for when the company takes in less than it spends.


Oh I understand the point. What YOU clearly don't understand is how stupid it was to bring up model Ts when automobiles have been a fucking constant since inception AND is one of the telltale industries that illustrates exactly why your opinions are so fucking farcical.

No, motherfucker, we don't need to keep producing typewriters WHEN WE CAN STILL RETAIN EMPLOYMENT SELLING COMPUTERS. Jesus fucking christ, you'd walk three fucking miles around a well trying to use any word to describe water than wet.


What net effect have you had by increasing income when the cost of goods went up right along with it? You aren't so deluded as to believe that you've made comapnies pay all these people more money but the cost of goods isn't going to go up are you?




You might want to ask all those home builders who find that they can't sell a fucking house in the last 4 years for the answer to your goddamn joke, joke. People tend to buy things when they can afford them, which itself is a reinvestent back into the very business culture you are crying wolf about. Or, did you think home builders couldn't afford fucking supplies to build homes before your kind came along with cheap mexican labor.


In fact, I talked to the owner of a surveying company just yesterday about the impact of your kind of politics. Usually a staunch supporter of free markets even HE, and his failing fucking business that can't find the work he used to have thanks to state bids being given to international companies, is starting to lean to protectionist ideas. And, let me just say, it's pretty fucking pathetic when we make excuses for importing Canadian surveyors while starving AMERICANS out of LOCAL jobs.


but hey, we sure as hell won't see your candy fucking ass moving to India and immersing yourself in a culture of cheap labor while preying on the US like a buzzard does roadkill, will we?

 

[Shogun]

So you think we can only enjoy a fine standard of living by exploiting poorer peoples? Nice justification- reminds me of the justifications for slavery.

who ELSE is going to grow bananas or sugar? Gosh.. I wonder why CUBA wasn't a big fan of capitalism and the pieces of shit who keep making excuses for cheap labor.

 

[Shogun]

So you think we can only enjoy a fine standard of living by exploiting poorer peoples? Nice justification- reminds me of the justifications for slavery.

How poor will those same people be without us employing them? Secondly, let's get real for a moment. Shogun is grossly overstating this foreign labor issue. Our unemployment rate stands at a hair over 10% and it would rather disengenuos to believe that all 10% is from people that lost jobs overseas. But just for kicks let's call it that. Let's get wholly unreasonable and say we would have 0% unemployment if we didn't have all those jobs overseas. That STILL would translate to a country with one of, if not the, highest standards of living in the world employing 90% of it's labor force in it's own country. Keep in mind if we want to get real it's more than that. Despite the volume of things we import from overseas, somehow in decent economic times we manage to maintain single digit unemployment.

In short, no I am not saying we need to exploit poor people to raise our standard of living, because on the whole, we clearly aren't doing that now.

oh well HEAVEN FUCKING FORBID they focus on raising thier own goddamn standard of living without cutting the throat of the US to water their fields. THIS is the punchline of your type: you make excuses for trade deficits and pretend that a free market fixes everything WHILE IGNORING the fact that China's, India's, and Mexico's labor is ONLY CHEAP BECAUSE OF A TOTAL LACK OF SELF INVESTMENT. Do you expect cheap labor to REMAIN CHEAP? Did you think that Indian's with an income WON'T eventually demand a higher wage? Can't maintain the dirt cheap status quo by making China focus on it's OWN consumer base rather than use ours like toilet paper, eh? If Mexico can't sell cars in the US because of Tarifs WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THEY WILL HAVE TO SELL THEM TO? Here's a hint, you silly bastard: MEXICANS. And, be sure, it's not a coincidence that the very locations that you undermine the American SOL are generally dirt poor, semi-third world nations or governments who clearly have no intention of raising their SOLs while the fat kid in America gobbles up another nike tennis shoe.


Like I said, if BE$N had his way he'd scrap Osha, child labor laws and any other step forward in labor made in the last 100 years just so he can make bullshit excuses for FMC in order to feel correct about something he is batshit crazy wrong about.

 

[Bern80]

YEA, Indentured servant! Even though jobs are finite and limited if you don't want to sign over 7 years of your fucking life then enjoy eating dirt and cobwebs! This is the AMERICA that BE$N wants to create.

Get in the fucking real world for a second. Where in this country is any company plucking people off the street and forcing them to work for them for seven years for little wage. Last time I checked I got to decide if I want to work for my current employer or not.

No, motherfucker, we don't need to keep producing typewriters WHEN WE CAN STILL RETAIN EMPLOYMENT SELLING COMPUTERS. Jesus fucking christ, you'd walk three fucking miles around a well trying to use any word to describe water than wet.

Jesus this is exactly the stupid java programmer argument you keep arguing is so damn impossible. You BUILD a type writer. A computer has to be PROGRAMMED. Two vastly different things moron. YOU are the one who said it was so unreasonable for a laborer (someone who builds things) to retrain himself to become a programmer. Get your fucking doomsday scenarios straight.

You might want to ask all those home builders who find that they can't sell a fucking house in the last 4 years for the answer to your goddamn joke, joke. People tend to buy things when they can afford them, which itself is a reinvestent back into the very business culture you are crying wolf about. Or, did you think home builders couldn't afford fucking supplies to build homes before your kind came along with cheap mexican labor.

This is not an ideological argument. This is basic fucking math. Gee Shogun thanks a ton for increasing my salary from 50k a year to 60k by and saving all those jobs. Nevermind the house I was gonna build now costs an extra 10k to build because you deemed I don't have the right to choose who I want to build my home.

In fact, I talked to the owner of a surveying company just yesterday about the impact of your kind of politics. Usually a staunch supporter of free markets even HE, and his failing fucking business that can't find the work he used to have thanks to state bids being given to international companies, is starting to lean to protectionist ideas. And, let me just say, it's pretty fucking pathetic when we make excuses for importing Canadian surveyors while starving AMERICANS out of LOCAL jobs.

Do you understand why said surveyor got out bid? He got out bid because whoever needs that particular skill either A can't afford him or B can find someone else to do the same job for less. It's like your stupid ass tariff argument where we should make every Honda cost at minimum what a Ford does. The American consumer wants to keep as much of their income as possible. If buying a car made overseas helps do that, great. Tell me how you are helping that person by forcing him to pay that higher cost no matter what. You think you saved a job. You also made an American consumer less wealthy than he would have been otherwise. Your Utopia is a zero sum game at best Shogun. it won't help this country prosper. All it does is make sure that if one suffers all must suffer.