Equality and Israeli Citizenship

[Phoenall]

Here's another question:

Arab Israeli citizens can have their citizenship revoked for supporting terrorism or acting against the state ...but can Jewish Israeli citizens have their citizenship revoked for supporting terrorism?

Here again - citizenship categorized by ethnicity.

Only if they have dual nationality, and the law applies to all Israeli's


Here again - A RED HERRING that has no basis in reality

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Is there any such thing as an Israeli Citizen?

Citizenship is divided - there are Arab Israeli citizens and Jewish Israeli citizens.

Do any other countries have a divided citizenship based on ethnic groups? (I don't know of any)

Can a society have true equality if it has different categories of citizenship? Does that not in and of itself foster an atmosphere of inequality?

I think yes, and I think it creates a subconscious belief that some citizens are better than others and this is reinforced in a system of citizenship that gives different rights and obligations to each group. It strives for a "different but equal" system, but I don't think that can truly work.

I don't know what this post is supposed to mean. My grandmother in a Haifa hospital, was treated by Arab doctors and nurses. My cousins went to Hebrew University with Arab university students. Are you talking about the Palestinians in the "territories", or Arabs in Israel proper?

 

[montelatici]

Non-Jews do not have the same or equal rights under Israeli law that Jews have. That is a fact. Just a few (excluding the big "right of return" law which extends only to Jews) of the 50 or more discriminatory laws include citizenship laws, property ownership laws and equal access to housing laws:

"Israeli Supreme Court upholds law allowing housing discrimination against Palestinians -

See more at: Israeli Supreme Court upholds law allowing housing discrimination against Palestinians

"The JNF has a specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. Thus the 13 percent of land in Israel owned by the JNF is by definition off-limits to Palestinian Arab citizens, and when the ILA tenders leases for land owned by the JNF, it does so only to Jews—either Israeli citizens or Jews from the Diaspora. This arrangement makes the state directly complicit in overt discrimination against Arab citizens in land allocation and use....."

Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages: IV. Discrimination in Land Allocation and Access


Israel Extends Integration Ban On Arabs Married To Israelis
Israel's Knesset has extended a law that bans Palestinians married to Israelis from living with their spouses in Israel

Israel Extends Integration Ban On Arabs Married To Israelis

 

[P F Tinmore]

If there is no discrimination why can't these Christians, who are Israeli citizens, return to their land in Israel?

 

[Phoenall]

Non-Jews do not have the same or equal rights under Israeli law that Jews have. That is a fact. Just a few (excluding the big "right of return" law which extends only to Jews) of the 50 or more discriminatory laws include citizenship laws, property ownership laws and equal access to housing laws:

"Israeli Supreme Court upholds law allowing housing discrimination against Palestinians -

See more at: Israeli Supreme Court upholds law allowing housing discrimination against Palestinians

"The JNF has a specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. Thus the 13 percent of land in Israel owned by the JNF is by definition off-limits to Palestinian Arab citizens, and when the ILA tenders leases for land owned by the JNF, it does so only to Jews—either Israeli citizens or Jews from the Diaspora. This arrangement makes the state directly complicit in overt discrimination against Arab citizens in land allocation and use....."

Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages: IV. Discrimination in Land Allocation and Access


Israel Extends Integration Ban On Arabs Married To Israelis
Israel's Knesset has extended a law that bans Palestinians married to Israelis from living with their spouses in Israel

Israel Extends Integration Ban On Arabs Married To Israelis

No such law as right of return, it is just a UN concept, the closest there is to it is what ever any nation has put in place

 

[Phoenall]

If there is no discrimination why can't these Christians, who are Israeli citizens, return to their land in Israel?

Who says they are Israeli's ?

 

[Shusha]

If there is no discrimination why can't these Christians, who are Israeli citizens, return to their land in Israel?

As Israeli citizens, they receive the full benefit of their Israeli citizenship. So there is no discrimination in the context of this thread.

The question you are actually asking, is why can't the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people displaced in war go back to living where their grandparents and great-grandparents used to live (even if the land was not actually privately owned by their ancestors -- some was, some wasn't).

And the answer is -- its complicated.

Its the crux of the entire conflict isn't it? Why can't people go back to living where their ancestors came from?

 

[Shusha]

One does wonder if Jewish grandchildren and great-grandchildren are discriminated against by being unable to return to their grandfather's and great-grandfather's land. I seem to recall that some of the communities being built by Jewish people are exactly that -- including one in Gaza. And yet people keep insisting that they be emptied.

 

[Phoenall]

If there is no discrimination why can't these Christians, who are Israeli citizens, return to their land in Israel?

As Israeli citizens, they receive the full benefit of their Israeli citizenship. So there is no discrimination in the context of this thread.

The question you are actually asking, is why can't the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people displaced in war go back to living where their grandparents and great-grandparents used to live (even if the land was not actually privately owned by their ancestors -- some was, some wasn't).

And the answer is -- its complicated.

Its the crux of the entire conflict isn't it? Why can't people go back to living where their ancestors came from?

It can be made simple by looking at international laws of 1949/1949 and not by looking at UN resolutions of 2014/2015. The laws of 1948/1949 allow for the expulsion of enemy militia during times of war and immediately after so safeguard the civilians left in the aftermath of war. These expelled persons have no further claim on the land, and neither do their offspring. The UN has tried many times to make a legal right of return international law, only to have those who want to see it the most balk at the first fence when they realise it would also apply to them.

 

[Phoenall]

One does wonder if Jewish grandchildren and great-grandchildren are discriminated against by being unable to return to their grandfather's and great-grandfather's land. I seem to recall that some of the communities being built by Jewish people are exactly that -- including one in Gaza. And yet people keep insisting that they be emptied.

The same people that deny any international treaty or international law that supports and defends the Jews rights to live in Israel and defend its people from attacks.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If there is no discrimination why can't these Christians, who are Israeli citizens, return to their land in Israel?

As Israeli citizens, they receive the full benefit of their Israeli citizenship. So there is no discrimination in the context of this thread.

The question you are actually asking, is why can't the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people displaced in war go back to living where their grandparents and great-grandparents used to live (even if the land was not actually privately owned by their ancestors -- some was, some wasn't).

And the answer is -- its complicated.

Its the crux of the entire conflict isn't it? Why can't people go back to living where their ancestors came from?

What is complicated about it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

One does wonder if Jewish grandchildren and great-grandchildren are discriminated against by being unable to return to their grandfather's and great-grandfather's land. I seem to recall that some of the communities being built by Jewish people are exactly that -- including one in Gaza. And yet people keep insisting that they be emptied.

The same people that deny any international treaty or international law that supports and defends the Jews rights to live in Israel and defend its people from attacks.

Please expound.

 

[Phoenall]

One does wonder if Jewish grandchildren and great-grandchildren are discriminated against by being unable to return to their grandfather's and great-grandfather's land. I seem to recall that some of the communities being built by Jewish people are exactly that -- including one in Gaza. And yet people keep insisting that they be emptied.

The same people that deny any international treaty or international law that supports and defends the Jews rights to live in Israel and defend its people from attacks.

Please expound.

You for example who denies the existence of the mandate of Palestine and its delineation of the two partitions of Palestine.
You believe the mangled words of an islamonazi propagandist over the actual words of the mandate itself

 

[Shusha]

What is complicated about it?

If you think it is not complicated, argue for me that the Jewish people are entirely correct in building in Gush Etzion and in Gaza and in numerous other places, since they are only returning to the lands of their grandfathers. Argue for me their right to put up an Israeli flag there.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What is complicated about it?

If you think it is not complicated, argue for me that the Jewish people are entirely correct in building in Gush Etzion and in Gaza and in numerous other places, since they are only returning to the lands of their grandfathers. Argue for me their right to put up an Israeli flag there.

Do they have a family tree to prove that or is it just a say so thing?

 

[Phoenall]

What is complicated about it?

If you think it is not complicated, argue for me that the Jewish people are entirely correct in building in Gush Etzion and in Gaza and in numerous other places, since they are only returning to the lands of their grandfathers. Argue for me their right to put up an Israeli flag there.

Do they have a family tree to prove that or is it just a say so thing?

How about they have land registry forms issued by the Ottomans/British mandatory showing they are the legal land owners.


WILL THAT DO AS EVIDENCE FOR YOU

 

[Shusha]

What is complicated about it?

If you think it is not complicated, argue for me that the Jewish people are entirely correct in building in Gush Etzion and in Gaza and in numerous other places, since they are only returning to the lands of their grandfathers. Argue for me their right to put up an Israeli flag there.

Do they have a family tree to prove that or is it just a say so thing?

See? Already you are complicating things -- attaching specific criteria to when and who has a "right of return".

So what kind of "family tree" are you asking for? Proof of private family ownership and direct line of descent?

 

[P F Tinmore]

What is complicated about it?

If you think it is not complicated, argue for me that the Jewish people are entirely correct in building in Gush Etzion and in Gaza and in numerous other places, since they are only returning to the lands of their grandfathers. Argue for me their right to put up an Israeli flag there.

Do they have a family tree to prove that or is it just a say so thing?

See? Already you are complicating things -- attaching specific criteria to when and who has a "right of return".

So what kind of "family tree" are you asking for? Proof of private family ownership and direct line of descent?

Start @ 12:12



Sorry about the video. Have you tried those cheap earbuds yet?

 

[Shusha]

Start @ 12:50

...

Sorry about the video. Have you tried those cheap earbuds yet?

I use earbuds all the time. Sometimes the CC works as well. Okay, so I watched from 12:50 until the end of that segment.

I'm not sure what your point is. Its one person's (or, if you will, one family's) personal narrative. They have a written family tree, written down maybe forty or fifty years ago, since her father is on it. Her great-great-great (450 years great) made a "break" from wherever he was from and moved to Ramallah. His family lived there for some number of generations. His family has now made a "break"and moved elsewhere because of war or conflict or, likely, they are Christian, persecution. This makes her sad. She wants her family to continue to live in Ramallah. (Why can't she go back to Ramallah? For that matter, why doesn't she want to go back to where her great-x-?-grandfather originally came from?)

I have a family tree too. My paternal grandmother's family came from farmland at the base of the mountains in County Wicklow, Ireland. I can google map the exact place. Does this family tree give me rights to land ownership in Ireland? To build there -- a house, a town, a synagogue? Does this give me rights to sovereignty there? Why or why not?

Are you saying that family history is enough to grant rights to property ownership? Land? Sovereignty?

 

[Phoenall]

Start @ 12:50

...

Sorry about the video. Have you tried those cheap earbuds yet?

I use earbuds all the time. Sometimes the CC works as well. Okay, so I watched from 12:50 until the end of that segment.

I'm not sure what your point is. Its one person's (or, if you will, one family's) personal narrative. They have a written family tree, written down maybe forty or fifty years ago, since her father is on it. Her great-great-great (450 years great) made a "break" from wherever he was from and moved to Ramallah. His family lived there for some number of generations. His family has now made a "break"and moved elsewhere because of war or conflict or, likely, they are Christian, persecution. This makes her sad. She wants her family to continue to live in Ramallah. (Why can't she go back to Ramallah? For that matter, why doesn't she want to go back to where her great-x-?-grandfather originally came from?)

I have a family tree too. My paternal grandmother's family came from farmland at the base of the mountains in County Wicklow, Ireland. I can google map the exact place. Does this family tree give me rights to land ownership in Ireland? To build there -- a house, a town, a synagogue? Does this give me rights to sovereignty there? Why or why not?

Are you saying that family history is enough to grant rights to property ownership? Land? Sovereignty?

Only if they are Palestinians as they never lie do they, until they are caught and they ignore fact. A family tree is not valid as proof of ownership unless there is other documentation to go with it.