Getting specific on income/wealth inequality

[Lonestar_logic]

Nationally it is shrinking. It has been for decades. See links in my signature.

Then they need to model their states after Texas and stop electing idiot democrats.

LOL oh really? So republicans are the ones that are going to fix the wealth gap problem? Lol you people kill me!

I don't see a wealth gap problem. That's just some liberal talking point to divide the nation.

Republicans want to create jobs and one way to do that is to ease the burden on those that create jobs and another way is to simplify the tax codes. Democrats want to regulate everyone and everything which stifles job creation and entrepreneurship.

In the past 12 months, Texas has added 274,700 new jobs — that’s 12% of all jobs added nationwide and 51,000 more than California added … In fact, from 2002 to 2011, with 8% of the U.S. population, Texas created nearly one-third of the country’s highest-paying jobs.

10 Reasons Texas Is Our Future

 

[Mac1958]

Capitalism works when you have the right mix of incentives.

Fucking YES.

Incentives are not just for consumers or just for business. It's about finding the right mix, the right equilibrium, and that's essentially why the current absolutism is retarding progress.

Incentives are most easily and directly delivered through taxation, and that's why I'm against any kind of flat tax, which removes a long list of incentives for investment by both individuals and businesses.

At the same time -- and this is where the equilibrium comes in -- I'm for minimum income taxes as well. So someone whose top tax rate is 39.6% would have a minimum effective tax rate of, say 20.0%.

Give and take, balance.

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[Newby]

.

Interesting stuff here.

What about some kind of government mandate on maximum income?

(ducks down to avoid fireworks)

.

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income". However when a significant percentage (40%) has none at all because they have barely enough to survive you have effectively handicapped capitalism.

Imagine how much better capitalism would be working in this nation if that 40% did have disposable income. The economy would be booming. The evidence for that was in the 1990's when good jobs with benefits were available and unemployment was low.

Just an FYI that booming economy was a result of cutting military spending after the Cold War and investors looking for alternatives. They weren't put off by the 2 largest tax increases in history (under Bush sr and Clinton) and they created 20 million new jobs.

Capitalism works when you have the right mix of incentives.

I'd argue that it has nothing to do with income, but more with the cost of goods, which has been completely ignored by the media since Obama took office. The cost of virtually everything has skyrocketd, yet that is ignored. I remember constant reports of rising gas and grocery prices when Bush was in office, I've heard nothing about it in recent years, even tho the cost of groceries has almost doubled, along with fuel. I know, none of it is the O's fault, it has nothing to do with his policies of attacking energy production in this country, even after almost 6 years of being in office, nothing is his fault.

 

[dblack]

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income".

Never heard that one. The fundamentals of capitalism are private property and free trade.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.

Interesting stuff here.

What about some kind of government mandate on maximum income?

(ducks down to avoid fireworks)

.

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income". However when a significant percentage (40%) has none at all because they have barely enough to survive you have effectively handicapped capitalism.

Imagine how much better capitalism would be working in this nation if that 40% did have disposable income. The economy would be booming. The evidence for that was in the 1990's when good jobs with benefits were available and unemployment was low.

Just an FYI that booming economy was a result of cutting military spending after the Cold War and investors looking for alternatives. They weren't put off by the 2 largest tax increases in history (under Bush sr and Clinton) and they created 20 million new jobs.

Capitalism works when you have the right mix of incentives.

I'd argue that it has nothing to do with income, but more with the cost of goods, which has been completely ignored by the media since Obama took office. The cost of virtually everything has skyrocketd, yet that is ignored. I remember constant reports of rising gas and grocery prices when Bush was in office, I've heard nothing about it in recent years, even tho the cost of groceries has almost doubled, along with fuel. I know, none of it is the O's fault, it has nothing to do with his policies of attacking energy production in this country, even after almost 6 years of being in office, nothing is his fault.

Too bad the inflation numbers don't support your allegation.

 

[Darkwind]

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income". However when a significant percentage (40%) has none at all because they have barely enough to survive you have effectively handicapped capitalism.

Imagine how much better capitalism would be working in this nation if that 40% did have disposable income. The economy would be booming. The evidence for that was in the 1990's when good jobs with benefits were available and unemployment was low.

Just an FYI that booming economy was a result of cutting military spending after the Cold War and investors looking for alternatives. They weren't put off by the 2 largest tax increases in history (under Bush sr and Clinton) and they created 20 million new jobs.

Capitalism works when you have the right mix of incentives.

I'd argue that it has nothing to do with income, but more with the cost of goods, which has been completely ignored by the media since Obama took office. The cost of virtually everything has skyrocketd, yet that is ignored. I remember constant reports of rising gas and grocery prices when Bush was in office, I've heard nothing about it in recent years, even tho the cost of groceries has almost doubled, along with fuel. I know, none of it is the O's fault, it has nothing to do with his policies of attacking energy production in this country, even after almost 6 years of being in office, nothing is his fault.

Too bad the inflation numbers don't support your allegation.

You mean those highly manipulated and altered inflation numbers that are cherry picked for the purpose of political expediency?

Those inflation numbers?

ROI: Don't Trust the Inflation Numbers - WSJ

How The US Government Manipulates Inflation Data - Business Insider

 

[LeftofLeft]

I find the debate on income and wealth inequality to be fruitless. Clinton, Reid, Kerry, Pelosi, Biden, The Kennedy Family..... All of them are more wealthy than myself and they generate more income than myself. Taking their wealth and income is not going to make my economic position necessarily better from a sustained income and wealth distribution standpoint. However, having equal opportunity and fertile environment to grow will make my situation better.

 

[Darkwind]

What is even more important over the inflation numbers is the perception of prices.

As just about ANYONE, and they will tell you the cost of everything is going up, and going up at a steep rate.

The people of this country feel the inflation, regardless of the manipulated numbers that they hide behind.

 

[Redfish]

Here ya go libs, lets give every citizen of the USA a guaranteed income of 150K per year. All jobs same pay. Same pay whether you work or sit on your ass. Same pay whether you have a 9th grade education or a Phd.

Ok so far?

Now, under such a system, who would work? who would invent new electronic gadgets and medical breakthroughs?

Answer: no one

The incentive to improve your station in life is what makes people do great things. Take that away and you have nothing. But we would all be EQUALLY miserable, and to you fools equality is all that matters.

 

[Skull Pilot]

.

Two part question:

1. Is income/wealth inequality a problem in America?

2. If it is, instead of just screaming bumper sticker slogans, precisely what would you do about it? And when I say "precisely", for example, if you'd increase tax rates, to precisely what figures?

I'm hoping for less partisan sloganeering and more actual specifics.

.

No it's not a problem.

No one is stopping anyone from making more money if they so desire.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income".

Never heard that one. The fundamentals of capitalism are private property and free trade.

Free trade assumes there is disposable income.

Remove disposable income and all you have is subsistence trade. I exchange my eggs for your corn. If you make a corn doll trinket then I must have surplus eggs in order to trade for it.

Capitalism exploits the surplus above subsistence but unless the surplus is in the hands of the buyers they are stuck on subsistence and cannot participate.

Right now 40% of the population are effectively non participants because they are subsisting without disposable income.

 

[Derideo_Te]

What is even more important over the inflation numbers is the perception of prices.

As just about ANYONE, and they will tell you the cost of everything is going up, and going up at a steep rate.

The people of this country feel the inflation, regardless of the manipulated numbers that they hide behind.

The perception of the cost rising is because wages are stagnating, not because inflation is not being reported accurately.

If you didn't get an increase last year then your effective income decreased by the rate of inflation and therefore you have less disposable income.

Blaming the government for "not reporting inflation" is just another smoke screen to hide the fact that hard working Americans are being screwed out of being paid living wages.

 

[Darkwind]

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income".

Never heard that one. The fundamentals of capitalism are private property and free trade.

Free trade assumes there is disposable income.

Remove disposable income and all you have is subsistence trade. I exchange my eggs for your corn. If you make a corn doll trinket then I must have surplus eggs in order to trade for it.

Capitalism exploits the surplus above subsistence but unless the surplus is in the hands of the buyers they are stuck on subsistence and cannot participate.

Right now 40% of the population are effectively non participants because they are subsisting without disposable income.

The trouble with you analogy is the definition of disposable income.

40% of the people right now chose to waste their income and then claim they have no disposable income.

When you buy McDonald's at the inflated prices due to overpaid labor instead of healthy vegetable and other non-processed foods, you are wasting income. When you chose to spend $800 because you have to have the iPhone 19 with cranial implant instead of a 19.95 per YEAR phone that connects through an existing computer....you are wasting income.

The price of poverty in America is embarrassingly rich by the worlds standards.


BTW...capitalism cannot distilled down to just 'disposable income'.

 

[Billy000]

Then they need to model their states after Texas and stop electing idiot democrats.

LOL oh really? So republicans are the ones that are going to fix the wealth gap problem? Lol you people kill me!

I don't see a wealth gap problem. That's just some liberal talking point to divide the nation.

Republicans want to create jobs and one way to do that is to ease the burden on those that create jobs and another way is to simplify the tax codes. Democrats want to regulate everyone and everything which stifles job creation and entrepreneurship.

In the past 12 months, Texas has added 274,700 new jobs — that’s 12% of all jobs added nationwide and 51,000 more than California added … In fact, from 2002 to 2011, with 8% of the U.S. population, Texas created nearly one-third of the country’s highest-paying jobs.

10 Reasons Texas Is Our Future

If dems don't care about jobs then why was twice as many private jobs created in Obama's first term than in both of Bush's terms? Don't believe me? Look it up.

 

[dblack]

The fundamental basis to capitalism is that everyone has "disposable income".

Never heard that one. The fundamentals of capitalism are private property and free trade.

Free trade assumes there is disposable income.

Remove disposable income and all you have is subsistence trade. I exchange my eggs for your corn. If you make a corn doll trinket then I must have surplus eggs in order to trade for it.

Capitalism exploits the surplus above subsistence but unless the surplus is in the hands of the buyers they are stuck on subsistence and cannot participate.

Right now 40% of the population are effectively non participants because they are subsisting without disposable income.

None of this makes sense to me.

Free trade doesn't assume anything other than the freedom to trade. It's the old liberal conflation of freedom and empowerment. Free trade doesn't require disposable income any more than freedom of speech requires that everyone has a megaphone.

Capitalism doesn't 'exploit surplus'. It facilitates communal investment.

Why do you see 'subsistence trade' as not participating in capitalism?

 

[Darkwind]

What is even more important over the inflation numbers is the perception of prices.

As just about ANYONE, and they will tell you the cost of everything is going up, and going up at a steep rate.

The people of this country feel the inflation, regardless of the manipulated numbers that they hide behind.

The perception of the cost rising is because wages are stagnating, not because inflation is not being reported accurately.

If you didn't get an increase last year then your effective income decreased by the rate of inflation and therefore you have less disposable income.

Blaming the government for "not reporting inflation" is just another smoke screen to hide the fact that hard working Americans are being screwed out of being paid living wages.

The government is ACTIVELY manipulating the data.

I have had a raise every year for the past 10 years. Inflation still went up. Some years, I kept up, some I didn't, some I managed to do better than inflation.

HOWEVER...inflation still went up.

To say that government is just reporting the data is like saying that rdean is just a loveable guy who is misunderstood.

 

[Darkwind]

Last post on this because it is actually derailing Mac's thread and I didn't want to to that.

Over the past 30 years, the federal government has made a lot of changes to the way it calculates inflation. It's taken place under presidents of both parties. Each change in methodology has come with plausible-sounding justifications. But, as if by magic, each change has had the effect of flattering the numbers. Funny, that.

According to one rogue economist, John Williams at Shadow Government Statistics, if we still calculated inflation the way we did when Jimmy Carter was president, the official inflation figures would look about as bad as they did when ... Jimmy Carter was president. According to Mr. Williams's calculations, if we counted inflation under the old system the official rate wouldn't be 1.5%. It would be closer to 10%.

ROI: Don't Trust the Inflation Numbers - WSJ

 

[Derideo_Te]

Never heard that one. The fundamentals of capitalism are private property and free trade.

Free trade assumes there is disposable income.

Remove disposable income and all you have is subsistence trade. I exchange my eggs for your corn. If you make a corn doll trinket then I must have surplus eggs in order to trade for it.

Capitalism exploits the surplus above subsistence but unless the surplus is in the hands of the buyers they are stuck on subsistence and cannot participate.

Right now 40% of the population are effectively non participants because they are subsisting without disposable income.

The trouble with you analogy is the definition of disposable income.

40% of the people right now chose to waste their income and then claim they have no disposable income.

When you buy McDonald's at the inflated prices due to overpaid labor instead of healthy vegetable and other non-processed foods, you are wasting income. When you chose to spend $800 because you have to have the iPhone 19 with cranial implant instead of a 19.95 per YEAR phone that connects through an existing computer....you are wasting income.

The price of poverty in America is embarrassingly rich by the worlds standards.


BTW...capitalism cannot distilled down to just 'disposable income'.

Playing the "blame the victim" card?

 

[Darkwind]

Free trade assumes there is disposable income.

Remove disposable income and all you have is subsistence trade. I exchange my eggs for your corn. If you make a corn doll trinket then I must have surplus eggs in order to trade for it.

Capitalism exploits the surplus above subsistence but unless the surplus is in the hands of the buyers they are stuck on subsistence and cannot participate.

Right now 40% of the population are effectively non participants because they are subsisting without disposable income.

The trouble with you analogy is the definition of disposable income.

40% of the people right now chose to waste their income and then claim they have no disposable income.

When you buy McDonald's at the inflated prices due to overpaid labor instead of healthy vegetable and other non-processed foods, you are wasting income. When you chose to spend $800 because you have to have the iPhone 19 with cranial implant instead of a 19.95 per YEAR phone that connects through an existing computer....you are wasting income.

The price of poverty in America is embarrassingly rich by the worlds standards.


BTW...capitalism cannot distilled down to just 'disposable income'.

Playing the "blame the victim" card?

No, the truth card.

When your kid comes to you and says he can't pay his car insurance this month because he had to have those brand new games for his Xbox, do you just pay it because he's just a victim?

Or do you say, "maybe you should manage your money better?"

I'll go with the latter.

Because its the truth.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

LOL oh really? So republicans are the ones that are going to fix the wealth gap problem? Lol you people kill me!

I don't see a wealth gap problem. That's just some liberal talking point to divide the nation.

Republicans want to create jobs and one way to do that is to ease the burden on those that create jobs and another way is to simplify the tax codes. Democrats want to regulate everyone and everything which stifles job creation and entrepreneurship.

In the past 12 months, Texas has added 274,700 new jobs — that’s 12% of all jobs added nationwide and 51,000 more than California added … In fact, from 2002 to 2011, with 8% of the U.S. population, Texas created nearly one-third of the country’s highest-paying jobs.

10 Reasons Texas Is Our Future

If dems don't care about jobs then why was twice as many private jobs created in Obama's first term than in both of Bush's terms? Don't believe me? Look it up.

Link to your claim or admit you lie.

The onus is on you. Support your claim Buckwheat.