Can Pogo C_Clayton_Jones OldLady Coyote or someone more adept with Progressive language
please help me explain to TheProgressivePatriot
what I mean by GOVERNMENT being neutral and treating beliefs/creeds equally while
(1) this doesn't require beliefs to be proven right, true, good or better
(2) INDIVIDUALS retain the right to discriminate and treat beliefs differently by free choice of beliefs
(3) Abusive, Discriminatory, Oppressive, Unlawful ACTIONS can be policed by Government but not BELIEFS
TheProgressivePatriot complained on another thread
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
that it appears I treat all beliefs as equal even if some are harmful, negative, wrong or lead to unlawful actions while others do not. I was trying to explain the GOVERNMENT cannot penalize people for their beliefs, but people have rights to due process to prove they have caused unlawful abuse or violation before being deprived of liberty.
Can someone please help me explain better what I mean.
I tried twice to explain on that previous thread, and don't think this is the right terminology to use.
If you can read what I was TRYING to say, can you please interpret or translate into
plain secular terms more for Progressive liberal audiences who may not think or believe in Constitutional terms.
Thank you very much!
Attempt #1 is posted here:
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
========
Attempt #2 is posted and copied below:
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
1. TheProgressivePatriot
A. Beliefs do not have to be proven right to be protected by law.
B. What matters is if people commit ABUSES that violate rights of others.
Just having beliefs in one's heads isn't a violation that GOVT can police.
C. In private, PEOPLE have the right to choose and discriminate, such
as people believing in secular humanism or atheism/nontheism and NOT believing in
or joining Christian or theists groups. People can use political parties like religious organizations
and "vote in" their own policies to pay for, while these policies would "exclude" members of other groups or beliefs.
That's fine IN PRIVATE.
E. What I'm saying is GOVERNMENT does not have AUTHORITY to punish people or exclude them for their BELIEFS.
THIS IS A HUGE POINT:
SEE Amendment 5
AMENDMENT V.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
@TheProgressivePatriot You ALSO have the right NOT to be deprived of liberty including YOUR freedom of beliefs WITHOUT FIRST BEING CONVICTED BY DUE PROCESS OF LAW.
This is why it is wrongful to DENY anyone the right to exercise beliefs in same sex marriage when they have done nothing to violate laws. By this law, it also is WRONGFUL to deny CHRISTIANS the right NOT to believe in same sex marriage because that is not against the law but part of religious freedom as well.
BELIEFS CANNOT BE REGULATED BY GOVERNMENT.
That's the DIFFERENCE between individual free choice where people like you and me have the right to discriminate and
to choose whether to change our minds or beliefs FREELY, and NOT be forced by Government to "change or violate our beliefs."
1. By the First Amendment it's Govt not being authorized either to Establish nor Prohibit free exercise of religion
2. By the Fifth Amendment, Govt cannot deprive people of liberty (including freedom of thought, belief, creed) without
DUE PROCESS OF LAW
3. By the Fourteenth Amendment on Equal Protections of the laws and by the Civil Rights statutes against Discrimination by Creed,
people cannot be denied equal rights, freedoms and protections of their BELIEFS by either govt or PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS
NOTE: TheProgressivePatriot
this is SEPARATE from people ACTING on their beliefs so as to cause unlawful actions
(examples: abuse, threatening harassment, SLANDER OR LIBEL, Defamation or Misrepresentation, Fraud, UNLAWFUL DISCRIMINATION (not by BELIEFS alone but by actions against people if this discrimination is based solely on their creeds, race, birth gender, etc. but does not apply to discriminating against behavior or actions that are against someone's BELIEFS)
(a) You have to commit a crime, abuse or violation of law first before being punished by law, penalized or deprived of rights or liberties
(b) With discrimination, people have the right to refuse to ENGAGE in faith-based behaviors or actions, and this is NOT the same
as "discrimination against people for their creeds"
(c) So YES I AGREE that businesses cannot discriminate against people SOLELY for their CREEDS or BELIEFS including LGBT orientation/identity
(d) But also, you have equal rights to BELIEVE in "progay or pro same sex marriage beliefs"
as Christians have to believe in "anti-gay" or "anti same sex marriage beliefs"
because those BELIEFS are FAITH BASED and are NOT government jurisdiction to regulate, penalize, establish or prohibit.
Whether you are right or wrong TheProgressivePatriot
you have the RIGHT to your beliefs, even to discriminate against Christians.
Only if your behavior causes ACTIONS that are unlawful, then those ACTIONS can be policed by Government for violating laws. But NOT your speech, NOT your thoughts, beliefs or creeds!
These LAWS PROTECT YOU as well from Govt abuses infringing on YOUR right to YOUR beliefs. These laws goes both ways, the same laws that protect YOU protect Other People with their beliefs as well as yours!
please help me explain to TheProgressivePatriot
what I mean by GOVERNMENT being neutral and treating beliefs/creeds equally while
(1) this doesn't require beliefs to be proven right, true, good or better
(2) INDIVIDUALS retain the right to discriminate and treat beliefs differently by free choice of beliefs
(3) Abusive, Discriminatory, Oppressive, Unlawful ACTIONS can be policed by Government but not BELIEFS
TheProgressivePatriot complained on another thread
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
that it appears I treat all beliefs as equal even if some are harmful, negative, wrong or lead to unlawful actions while others do not. I was trying to explain the GOVERNMENT cannot penalize people for their beliefs, but people have rights to due process to prove they have caused unlawful abuse or violation before being deprived of liberty.
Can someone please help me explain better what I mean.
I tried twice to explain on that previous thread, and don't think this is the right terminology to use.
If you can read what I was TRYING to say, can you please interpret or translate into
plain secular terms more for Progressive liberal audiences who may not think or believe in Constitutional terms.
Thank you very much!
Attempt #1 is posted here:
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
========
Attempt #2 is posted and copied below:
Do you consider LGBTQ lifestyles/choices a mental disorder?
1. TheProgressivePatriot
A. Beliefs do not have to be proven right to be protected by law.
B. What matters is if people commit ABUSES that violate rights of others.
Just having beliefs in one's heads isn't a violation that GOVT can police.
C. In private, PEOPLE have the right to choose and discriminate, such
as people believing in secular humanism or atheism/nontheism and NOT believing in
or joining Christian or theists groups. People can use political parties like religious organizations
and "vote in" their own policies to pay for, while these policies would "exclude" members of other groups or beliefs.
That's fine IN PRIVATE.
E. What I'm saying is GOVERNMENT does not have AUTHORITY to punish people or exclude them for their BELIEFS.
THIS IS A HUGE POINT:
SEE Amendment 5
AMENDMENT V.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
@TheProgressivePatriot You ALSO have the right NOT to be deprived of liberty including YOUR freedom of beliefs WITHOUT FIRST BEING CONVICTED BY DUE PROCESS OF LAW.
This is why it is wrongful to DENY anyone the right to exercise beliefs in same sex marriage when they have done nothing to violate laws. By this law, it also is WRONGFUL to deny CHRISTIANS the right NOT to believe in same sex marriage because that is not against the law but part of religious freedom as well.
BELIEFS CANNOT BE REGULATED BY GOVERNMENT.
That's the DIFFERENCE between individual free choice where people like you and me have the right to discriminate and
to choose whether to change our minds or beliefs FREELY, and NOT be forced by Government to "change or violate our beliefs."
1. By the First Amendment it's Govt not being authorized either to Establish nor Prohibit free exercise of religion
2. By the Fifth Amendment, Govt cannot deprive people of liberty (including freedom of thought, belief, creed) without
DUE PROCESS OF LAW
3. By the Fourteenth Amendment on Equal Protections of the laws and by the Civil Rights statutes against Discrimination by Creed,
people cannot be denied equal rights, freedoms and protections of their BELIEFS by either govt or PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS
NOTE: TheProgressivePatriot
this is SEPARATE from people ACTING on their beliefs so as to cause unlawful actions
(examples: abuse, threatening harassment, SLANDER OR LIBEL, Defamation or Misrepresentation, Fraud, UNLAWFUL DISCRIMINATION (not by BELIEFS alone but by actions against people if this discrimination is based solely on their creeds, race, birth gender, etc. but does not apply to discriminating against behavior or actions that are against someone's BELIEFS)
(a) You have to commit a crime, abuse or violation of law first before being punished by law, penalized or deprived of rights or liberties
(b) With discrimination, people have the right to refuse to ENGAGE in faith-based behaviors or actions, and this is NOT the same
as "discrimination against people for their creeds"
(c) So YES I AGREE that businesses cannot discriminate against people SOLELY for their CREEDS or BELIEFS including LGBT orientation/identity
(d) But also, you have equal rights to BELIEVE in "progay or pro same sex marriage beliefs"
as Christians have to believe in "anti-gay" or "anti same sex marriage beliefs"
because those BELIEFS are FAITH BASED and are NOT government jurisdiction to regulate, penalize, establish or prohibit.
Whether you are right or wrong TheProgressivePatriot
you have the RIGHT to your beliefs, even to discriminate against Christians.
Only if your behavior causes ACTIONS that are unlawful, then those ACTIONS can be policed by Government for violating laws. But NOT your speech, NOT your thoughts, beliefs or creeds!
These LAWS PROTECT YOU as well from Govt abuses infringing on YOUR right to YOUR beliefs. These laws goes both ways, the same laws that protect YOU protect Other People with their beliefs as well as yours!
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