IDF preps for ground strike

[Kondor3]

...No need to invade Gaza to fill the tunnel..."

Filling the tunnel comes right after killing the tunnel-diggers... gotta go to the source... the only good Hamas is a dead Hamas.

Meanwhile... thanks are in order, to Hamas, for serving-up another casus belli on a silver platter.

Dumb-ass Palestinians.

 

[Shusha]

They also have the right to build tunnels in order to salvage their economy. .

So your position is that the purpose of the tunnels built into Israel is to improve the Gaza economy? So, what? They are export tunnels?

 

[Shusha]

Well, given that Hamas and the participating Gazans have built tunnels before, and given that they have been used to commit terror attacks (what other use do you think they might have going into Israel?) -- its a perfectly valid question.

Yes it is.

And given that Israel has maintained an illegal and immoral blockade of Gaza since 2006, Gazans have every right to build tunnels and attack Israel.

Israel deserves to be attacked!

Israel has no one else to blame but itself, for these attacks.

And this "blame" will stop when Israel ends its brutal occupation and blockade, not before.

Alright, so it is your position that Gaza will stop importing weapons and attacking Israel once the blockade is lifted, yes?

And you didn't answer my question -- what should Israel's response to the tunnel-building be?

 

[Shusha]

Article 51 does not allow Israel to collectively punish 1.5 million people who have committed no crime.

It does if they attack Israel. It's called self defense.

But according to Billo, Israel is not permitted to defend herself or her citizens.

 

[Shusha]

i just think the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves

The Gazans have not been attacked. There is nothing to defend FROM.

(No, don't give me the crap excuse that the blockade is an attack. 1. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent attacks, not to attack and 2. The way to end the blockade is through peace, not further violence.)

 

[ogibillm]

i just think the Palestinians are allowed to defend themselves

The Gazans have not been attacked. There is nothing to defend FROM.

(No, don't give me the crap excuse that the blockade is an attack. 1. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent attacks, not to attack and 2. The way to end the blockade is through peace, not further violence.)

that is one side's view of things

 

[Coyote]

A number of posts have been either deleted or moved to a new thread in Badlands. Infractions have also been given by several different moderators over the course of this thread. If your post is no longer here...consider that a warning.

Something else to consider, posts in IP require content in addition to any flames. That means more than LIP SERVICE to content. One line of topical content to 3 paragraphs of personal flaming ain't gonna fly. I recommend you ask yourself if the content is merely there to allow your flames or if the flames are there to enhance the content. Some are very skilled at knowing the difference, some...not so much. If your not sure, take it to the Badlands, our very own wild wild west

Now back to tunnels...

 

[Shusha]

that is one side's view of things

Its the correct view of things. Israel has completely disengaged from Gaza. Israel has removed not only its entire military presence there -- but every last settlement, synagogue, cemetary and Jew. There is no border dispute between Gaza and Israel. There is nothing lo fight against. There is nothing to fight for. There is nothing else to win. Gaza WON. There is no further conflict. Its done.

The Gazan people have no right to demand an open border between their quasi-nation and Israel. Every country in the world has a border and some sort of border checkpoints. If Gaza wants to improve its economy the way to increase economic trade between countries is through peace and not through acts of violence.

And, the blockade of sea and airspace sucks. No doubt about it. I'm not arguing that it doesn't suck . BUT the point of the blockade is to prevent conflict not to increase it. The blockade is a preventative measure which ultimately protects both Israel and her citizens and Gaza and her citizens. The blockade will lift when it is no longer useful. It will stop being useful -- it will be pointless -- when the Gazan people decide to stop creating a conflict when there is none.

STOP making excuses for the Gazan people to act badly. Do you think Gaza is trying to bully Israel into doing what Gaza wants? What does Gaza want that they don't already have? What is the point of trying to bully Israel? What do they hope to accomplish? They think that bullying Israel is going to end the blockade? That's the most utterly ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The terror tunnels serve no defensive purpose. They are strictly another method devised by Palestinians to pick at the heels of Israel. The tunnels, like the stabbings, the car rammings, the suicide bombers, the rockets and missiles aren't defense -- they are a way to provoke Israel into acting so that the Palestinians remain the perpetual victims and never have to take any responsibility for their own shit.

Gaza already has everything it needs to create a viable State. They should take it.

 

[Coyote]

Gaza has no control over its own border, airspace or coastline. It is denied the ability to independently negotiate trade, for it's citizens to leave, control of off shore resources, imports, exports, water, energy. Why is this ignored in favor of a myth that Israel has "completely" disengaged" and "given them" a state? There was no altruism in even that limited "gift" because Gaza was simply too costly both economically and politically for them to continue to justify the expenditure for a few settlements.

 

[Billo_Really]

So your position is that the purpose of the tunnels built into Israel is to improve the Gaza economy? So, what? They are export tunnels?

Which is down to 3% of pre-blockade levels.

Do you really want to know why tunnels are being built?

Crisis in Gaza
One year on from the onset of Operation Protective Edge life for many people in Gaza is getting worse. There has been virtually no reconstruction, there is no permanent ceasefire, no meaningful peace talks, and the blockade is still firmly in place.

The humanitarian needs remain enormous. Gaza has witnessed its worst destruction in decades and an already vulnerable civilian population has been left even more vulnerable.

More than 100,000 people (more than half of these children) have had their homes destroyed and are still displaced. Most of the water supply is unsafe to drink and there are power cuts of 12 hours a day. Restrictions on essential building materials mean that rebuilding homes has yet to begin.

The blockade prevents most people from leaving Gaza or trading with the outside world and markets in the West Bank. Fishermen and farmers are restricted from accessing their land and often shot at while working. The economy has been devastated, with more than 60 per cent of youth now unemployed - the highest rate in the world.

The blockade of Gaza

• The blockade - now in place for eight years - has devastated Gaza's economy, left most people unable to leave Gaza, restricted people from essential services such as healthcare and education, and cut Palestinians in Gaza off from those in the West Bank.
• More than 40% of people in Gaza - 67% of youth - are now unemployed and 80% of people are in need of aid.
• Many key industries, such as the construction industry, have been decimated as essential materials are not allowed into Gaza. Of the 19,000 homes left in need of reconstruction by last year’s hostilities, not one has been rebuilt.
• Exports recently fell to less than 3% of their pre-blockade levels, with heavy restrictions on the transfer of agricultural produce and other goods to Palestinian markets in the West Bank.

What would you do...

" if your neighbor prevented you from leaving your home; which resulted in you losing your job; with no income you were unable to provide for your family; you and your entire family are starving; some have already died; your house is in disrepair due to the constant barrage of bullets hitting your home; ALL because your neighbor (who has no legal jurisdiction on your property), insists on keeping you under house arrest, because he didn't like who you voted for in a local election."​

What would you do?

1. build a tunnel?
2. build a tunnel to go get food and materials to fix your home?
3. build a tunnel to attack your neighbor?
4. all of the above?

Your situation is getting desperate and you have to do something.

What would you do?

5. just sit there and explain why your neighbor is right and you are wrong.
​

That's what you'd do!

 

[Billo_Really]

Its the correct view of things.

It's YOUR correct view of things.

Israel has completely disengaged from Gaza. Israel has removed not only its entire military presence there -- but every last settlement, synagogue, cemetary and Jew. There is no border dispute between Gaza and Israel. There is nothing lo fight against. There is nothing to fight for. There is nothing else to win. Gaza WON. There is no further conflict. Its done.

The blockade IS the conflict.

The Gazan people have no right to demand an open border between their quasi-nation and Israel.

That's not what they're demanding.

Every country in the world has a border and some sort of border checkpoints.

Not on someone else's property!

If Gaza wants to improve its economy the way to increase economic trade between countries is through peace and not through acts of violence.

Gaza can improve their economy, if Israel would stop preventing their exports and limiting their imports.

And, the blockade of sea and airspace sucks. No doubt about it. I'm not arguing that it doesn't suck . BUT the point of the blockade is to prevent conflict not to increase it. The blockade is a preventative measure which ultimately protects both Israel and her citizens and Gaza and her citizens. The blockade will lift when it is no longer useful. It will stop being useful -- it will be pointless -- when the Gazan people decide to stop creating a conflict when there is none.

The blockade is a punitive measure to punish Palistinian's for voting for Hamas to represent them.

STOP making excuses for the Gazan people to act badly.

Why do you make excuses for Israel's bad behavior?

Do you think Gaza is trying to bully Israel into doing what Gaza wants?

And of coarse, Israel is not trying to bully Gazans?

What does Gaza want that they don't already have?

Freedom.

What is the point of trying to bully Israel?

You want people to actually think the inmates at a prison, can bully the warden and prison guards? That's what you want people to believe?

What do they hope to accomplish?

Freedom.

They think that bullying Israel is going to end the blockade?

Do you think killing the warden and all the guards, will keep the inmates out of prison?

That's the most utterly ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Try putting the shoe on the other foot and seeing it from someone else's point of view and I guarantee you will see something more ridiculous.

Do you want to know how ridiculous your comments are?

You're trying to tell us the emperor has new clothes!​

That's about as ridiculous as it gets.

The terror tunnels serve no defensive purpose. They are strictly another method devised by Palestinians to pick at the heels of Israel. The tunnels, like the stabbings, the car rammings, the suicide bombers, the rockets and missiles aren't defense -- they are a way to provoke Israel into acting so that the Palestinians remain the perpetual victims and never have to take any responsibility for their own shit.

Now you're just lying to yourself.

Gaza already has everything it needs to create a viable State. They should take it.

Oh, Israel is making sure they take it alright?

Rectally!

 

[Kondor3]

This isn't about one-sided notions of the interpretation of international law...

This is about something much more important; namely, the existence of the State of Israel...

The foolish Neanderthals of Hamas think they're the North Vietnamese, with their silly tunnels in the sand.

Every time they dig one, they give the Isrealis another excuse to bitch-slap the hell out of them.

Not exactly the brightest crayons in the box, these so-called Palestinians.

And, doesn't the IDF do a really excellent job, of racking-up a massively-lopsided kill-ratio, when the dumbasses of Hamas push them a bit too far?

Soon, the IDF will turn it into a sport... hunting Hamas tunnel-rats for fun and profit...

And, if there are, indeed, fresh tunnels being dug, then, it sounds like Hamas Hunting Season is about to open, again...

No bag limit, boys... enjoy.

 

[Shusha]

Gaza has no control over its own border, airspace or coastline. It is denied the ability to independently negotiate trade, for it's citizens to leave, control of off shore resources, imports, exports, water, energy. Why is this ignored in favor of a myth that Israel has "completely" disengaged" and "given them" a state? There was no altruism in even that limited "gift" because Gaza was simply too costly both economically and politically for them to continue to justify the expenditure for a few settlements.

None of this is ignored. Not in the least. What does Gaza want? What do the people of Gaza want? If it is Statehood and a viable economy with the health and well-being of the people at the forefront they would not be exerting their influence and spending their resources on taking pot shots at Israel.

Israel is not in the business of making nations and then giving them away (though maybe it should be given her success at it). Israel has no power over the nation-building of other groups seeking self-determination. That is their job. That is my point.

What Israel did was take the first step towards removing an influence which was detrimental to self-determination. It voluntarily and unilaterally withdrew its influence to allow the Gazan people to take responsibility for their own territory and people, in the hopes that they would use that opportunity to build something. Were there still restrictions in place? Sure. Its like letting your teenager gradually have more direct control over their own life while retaining some control over what comes into and goes out of the house.

The teenager chooses to squander all his money on drugs and alcohol and then whines and complains that he doesn't have anything to eat and its his mom's fault because she doesn't give him enough. Then he decides to trash the house in protest and smack his sister around. And then he wonders why he isn't allowed into the rest of the house with the family anymore.

Why are Gazans building tunnels instead of repairing homes and water treatment plants and pipes and facilities? Why are their resources being squandered in that way? Why aren't they making trade agreements with Israel? Why aren't they using the funds they are given to build something?


Don't give me this crap from the teenager that says "I have every right to attack you until you give me everything I want". Taking responsibility and co-operating is the way through this.

 

[Boston1]

Gaza has no control over its own border, airspace or coastline. It is denied the ability to independently negotiate trade, for it's citizens to leave, control of off shore resources, imports, exports, water, energy. Why is this ignored in favor of a myth that Israel has "completely" disengaged" and "given them" a state? There was no altruism in even that limited "gift" because Gaza was simply too costly both economically and politically for them to continue to justify the expenditure for a few settlements.

Gaza is under an internationally agreed embargo, no different than the Iran or Libyan sanctions were.

Its also admittedly digging tunnels to use in future attacks against the sovereign Israeli state. A clear act of war.

In which case Israel is well within its rights to defend itself.

Those are the very basic facts.

But I don't see how the sanctions Gaza has brought on itself are an excuse to continue attacks against Israel. One must keep the cart behind the horse.

 

[Shusha]

Not on someone else's property!

Are you saying that there is a border dispute between Israel and Gaza? If so, please elaborate. If not, this is irrelevant.

Gaza can improve their economy, if Israel would stop preventing their exports and limiting their imports.

We agree. Now, what is the best way for Gaza to encourage a healthy economy and trade relationship with Israel?

The blockade is a punitive measure to punish Palistinian's for voting for Hamas to represent them.

The blockade is a preventative measure to curtain hostile attacks. Don't tell me there are no attacks. You do acknowledge that Gaza is attacking Israel. You label it as "defense" and "resistance", but you do acknowledge it.

Why do you make excuses for Israel's bad behavior?

What bad behaviour would that be? Taking non-violent measures to prevent attacks which will save the lives of thousands of Gazans and Israeli civilians?

Freedom.

Okay. Freedom to do what? Have a healthy national economy, trade with neighbors, a population which has adequate (or better) health care and water and longevity? Have thriving agricultural and tourist industries? What is the best way to achieve this? Why don't they do that instead of building tunnels?

 

[Shusha]

Once again, if Gaza wants freedom, independance, a healthy economy, trade relationships, and all the other trappings of Statehood -- the way to achieve this is through peace and not through violent acts.

 

[Shusha]

AND...let's be fair about what Israel is asking for in all this -- just stop importing weapons and diverting humanitarian supplies in order to attack Israel.

If Gaza had an open territorial sea -- it wouldn't need trade agreements with Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Gaza has no control over its own border, airspace or coastline. It is denied the ability to independently negotiate trade, for it's citizens to leave, control of off shore resources, imports, exports, water, energy. Why is this ignored in favor of a myth that Israel has "completely" disengaged" and "given them" a state? There was no altruism in even that limited "gift" because Gaza was simply too costly both economically and politically for them to continue to justify the expenditure for a few settlements.

None of this is ignored. Not in the least. What does Gaza want? What do the people of Gaza want? If it is Statehood and a viable economy with the health and well-being of the people at the forefront they would not be exerting their influence and spending their resources on taking pot shots at Israel.

Yes, I think it is ignored. Over and over the popular meme is that Israel gave the pal's a great gift but that is a bit distorted. They did not give them a state (omitting the fact that Gaza wasn't really theirs to give, it was under occupation). They gave them what amounted to limited autonomy while retaining control of all the important functions of a state. I think once we are honest about that then we can argue about whether or not the Gaza no squandered an opportunity and whether Gaza or Israel or both are responsible for the current situation.

Israel is not in the business of making nations and then giving them away (though maybe it should be given her success at it). Israel has no power over the nation-building of other groups seeking self-determination. That is their job. That is my point.

I agree, Israel is not responsible for nation building.

What Israel did was take the first step towards removing an influence which was detrimental to self-determination. It voluntarily and unilaterally withdrew its influence to allow the Gazan people to take responsibility for their own territory and people, in the hopes that they would use that opportunity to build something. Were there still restrictions in place? Sure. Its like letting your teenager gradually have more direct control over their own life while retaining some control over what comes into and goes out of the house.[\quote]

There was no altruism involved. Maintaining an occupation of Gaza for the sale of a few settlements was extremely costly.

With Israel maintaining punative control of key aspects of Gaza - trade, egress, ingress, natural resources ... it is difficult to establish a state. Could the Gaza no have done better? Sure. But Israel's actions of collective punishment have not helped either.

The teenager chooses to squander all his money on drugs and alcohol and then whines and complains that he doesn't have anything to eat and its his mom's fault because she doesn't give him enough. Then he decides to trash the house in protest and smack his sister around. And then he wonders why he isn't allowed into the rest of the house with the family anymore.

These are not children.

Why are Gazans building tunnels instead of repairing homes and water treatment plants and pipes and facilities? Why are their resources being squandered in that way? Why aren't they making trade agreements with Israel? Why aren't they using the funds they are given to build something?

Israel has repeatedly destroyed their infrastructure and prevents the importation of material to fix it.

Is Israel willing to make trade agreements with hamas?

Don't give me this crap from the teenager that says "I have every right to attack you until you give me everything I want". Taking responsibility and co-operating is the way through this.

I have never given you that crap. On the other hand don't give me that crap that Israel gave them a state.

 

[Si modo]

Unsubscribed. Absolute power corrupts.

 

[Shusha]

Israel has repeatedly destroyed their infrastructure and prevents the importation of material to fix it.

Bullshit. 1.5 million tons of concrete was diverted or smuggled in to build tunnels. If it was used to build schools and homes instead of tunnels then there would be no restriction on importing concrete. This is exactly what I mean when I say that people make excuses for Hamas and the Gazan people's bad behaviour. It is their job and their responsibility to use the materials and resources they have access to in a responsible and nation-building manner. This is where they fail. Don't make excuses for it. And certainly don't lie that Gaza has no access to the materials.

Edited to emphasize: It is utter BS to claim that Gaza has no access to the resources it needs to build infrastructure. There are arguments to be made elsewhere, real and valid arguments. Arguments which deserve discussion. But to say that Gaza lacks resources is a fool's claim.

I have never given you that crap. On the other hand don't give me that crap that Israel gave them a state.

I didn't say Israel gave them a State. We agree Israel can't give or make a nation of another group wanting self-determination. What they had was an opportunity to build a State. That opportunity was given by Israel. That opportunity was squandered by the people of Gaza.