(Invite Only) -- What happened to Debate in the USA?

[flacaltenn]

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Shelzin
westwall
Sun Devil 92
katsteve2012
Mac1958
NewsVine_Mariyam
WinterBorn
Tom Paine 1949
OldLady
FA_Q2
K9Buck
The Professor

Welcome to the big experiment.. We designed this optional form of discussion a couple years ago now to create little foxholes for folks to gather from the bigger wars around us.. It's hardly been used.. I'm thinking it's time to create some distance from the raging incitements and partisan clashes and attempt to revive the ability to have discussions. The intent was not EXCLUDE, but to allow smaller groups to have discussions that don't get constantly "photo-bombed" by folks really NOT interested in discussion..

Hope you've seen the Breakfast Club... One of my fav movies of all time.. A bunch of folks from radically different backgrounds and principles get randomly tossed together by the principal and end up having the most HONEST discussions of their lives.. Actually DID change them.. BECAUSE of the honesty and the seclusion of the process. The door is not locked -- you don't have to do detention here. But I'm hoping that at LEAST we have an honest discussion while we're here..

The "list" was my best guess at people I've talked with that are more interested in solutions and principles than they are in "winning" elections.. My HOPE is that this is just first of MANY "detentions" we'll have to WORK on solutions and problem solving instead of constantly suffering shell shock from the din of partisan warfare.,..

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

Media is no help... Elected leaders aren't really a help. They are the generals in this war. From MY foxhole, things are pretty rough and desperate and bringing out the WORST in America... How do we convince people to check their principles and weigh in on THOSE -- rather than their party affiliations?

 

[katsteve2012]

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Invite List Below.
Shelzin
westwall
Sun Devil 92
katsteve2012
Mac1958
NewsVine_Mariyam
WinterBorn
Tom Paine 1949
OldLady
FA_Q2

Welcome to the big experiment.. We designed this optional form of discussion a couple years ago now to create little foxholes for folks to gather from the bigger wars around us.. It's hardly been used.. I'm thinking it's time to create some distance from the raging incitements and partisan clashes and attempt to revive the ability to have discussions. The intent was not EXCLUDE, but to allow smaller groups to have discussions that don't get constantly "photo-bombed" by folks really NOT interested in discussion..

Hope you've seen the Breakfast Club... One of my fav movies of all time.. A bunch of folks from radically different backgrounds and principles get randomly tossed together by the principal and end up having the most HONEST discussions of their lives.. Actually DID change them.. BECAUSE of the honesty and the seclusion of the process. The door is not locked -- you don't have to do detention here. But I'm hoping that at LEAST we have an honest discussion while we're here..

The "list" was my best guess at people I've talked with that are more interested in solutions and principles than they are in "winning" elections.. My HOPE is that this is just first of MANY "detentions" we'll have to WORK on solutions and problem solving instead of constantly suffering shell shock from the din of partisan warfare.,..

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

Media is no help... Elected leaders aren't really a help. They are the generals in this war. From MY foxhole, things are pretty rough and desperate and bringing out the WORST in America... How do we convince people to check their principles and weigh in on THOSE -- rather than their party affiliations?

Staying focused on solutions will obviously be challenging. Far too many in the forum now equate principles with political party affiliation.

So the first question is how do you even begin to talk to people who think that way if their thought process is totally based on who is on "the left or the right"?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It's kind of late here for me and I have work in the morning so I'm not able to contribute much at this moment other than to acknowledge my intent to participate and thank you for inviting me to your forum.

One thing I will say and maybe you and/or the other participants can help fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge base, is that one of the challenges I have is the way people use words such as Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, right-wing, left-wing, etc. as slurs. It's almost as if they're angry that they can't use the N-word anymore, at least not if they dont' want to be censured in someway, so they've come up with other words they use as a substitutes. I can't remember who explained it, but they've essentialy abstracted what they are saying to a non-offensive form however the manner in which they use the words still conveys their derision.

Another part of the problem with the way they use these terms is the blanket condemnation of their target group. Anyone with half a brain knows that very few things in life are absolute and generally there are exceptions to everything. They don't seem to understand (or care) that even if the term is applicable to 51% of the group, 49% is not a small number when representing people who don't fit the stereotypes they're tossing out. And realistically, it's not even that close to being 50/50.

Lastly, the ills that plague our society are complex and cannot be solved by simple-minded thinking. These problems have to be broken down into components and each component examined and if necessary broken down even further until they're small enough to be thoroughly understood and a solution crafted.

 

[katsteve2012]

It's kind of late here for me and I have work in the morning so I'm not able to contribute much at this moment other than to acknowledge my intent to participate and thank you for inviting me to your forum.

One thing I will say and maybe you and/or the other participants can help fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge base, is that one of the challenges I have is the way people use words such as Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, right-wing, left-wing, etc. as slurs. It's almost as if they're angry that they can't use the N-word anymore, at least not if they dont' want to be censured in someway, so they've come up with other words they use as a substitutes. I can't remember who explained it, but they've essentialy abstracted what they are saying to a non-offensive form however the manner in which they use the word conveys their derision.

Another part of the problem with the way they use these terms is the blanket condemnation of their target group. Anyone with half a brain knows that very few things in life are absolute and generally there are exceptions to everything. They don't seem to understand (or care) that even if the term is applicable to 51% of the group, 49% is not a small number when representing people who don't fit the stereotypes they're tossing out. And realistically, it's not even that close to being 50/50.

Lastly, the ills that plague our society are complex and cannot be solved by simple-minded thinking. These problems have to be broken down into components and each component examined and if necessary broken down even further until they're small enough to be thoroughly understood and a solution crafted.

Agreed. It is late here as well, Newsvine, and I have a consulting conference in the morning, but I wanted to give some thought to your observations. Political labels have indeed become substitutes for "other" terms. Truthfully this is nothing new.

Throughout history, people have reinvented their language for the sake of placing those who they disagree with into a category that they feel comfortable with, and at the same time sounds less offensive than what their actual thoughts are.

Given that this will never change, what are your suggestions besides moderator intervention that can make a positive difference?

Speaking for myself, I have found that it normally takes very little time to identify that people who attach political labels to human behavior, do not think, they react out of emotion and anger and more than anything else, misinformation.

 

[Mac1958]

How do we convince people to check their principles and weigh in on THOSE -- rather than their party affiliations?

Well, I've thought a lot about this, I think the root of this problem, as it is with most, is cultural, and so far I've only settled on a couple of thoughts:

First, nothing of substance can be accomplished unless and until each tribe holds its own accountable for its actions and intellectual dishonesty. I do see some of that on both ends, so there actually is some hope there. There's the Lincoln Project on the Right, and individual progressive pundits like Krystal Ball, Sam Harris and Matt Taibbi on the Left. Just show us some honest, constructive critical thinking and self-reflection, instead of your latest round of childish poo-flinging.

Second, given that we are such a celebrity-driven society, I strongly suspect it's going to take some high-level names on each end to say "enough is enough". Sports? Popular culture? There will have to be several, so that a momentum can be created. And most likely, it will require an important (even catastrophic) event to get the ball rolling. Right now, I don't think we're anywhere near this. And worse, each tribe is waiting for the other to be the adult in the room and make the first move.

My biggest concern is about a question I saw a couple of years ago: Has it been so long since we knew how to communicate properly and effectively that we have literally lost the skill? If that's the case, we're in serious trouble. Obviously the jury is still out. If we really have lost that skill, if reason and civility are like muscles - use 'em or lose 'em - this just continues to decay.

 

[Shelzin]

I have to go to work... But.. This is interesting. I will be back.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I will be rude and say you are all way ahead of the game.

I spend a lot of time talking with people about problem definition.

If someone does not like something, they perceive that it is a "problem", but when asked to define it in clear terms they often cannot.

I work from:

What is it that you want ?

What is reality ?

What is the gap ?

How are you measuring it ?

How will you know when you have achieved what you want in specific terms.

This was my approach when we discussed Obamacare. People would say Medicare for all or Universal health care for all. I would ask, just what does that mean...in specifics.

ONCE you've agreed upon a definition of the problem, the solutions become pretty straightforward and much of the antipathy that exists around different points of view ceases to be relevant.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

A case in point.

I don't know that the problem is so obvious. Just what is it that you think should be taking place and what is that happens that you don't like ?

You said: Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

I don't agree.

Why don't we step back and examine what it is that you anticipate should be happening.....or what you would like to see happen.

 

[Shelzin]

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

A case in point.

I don't know that the problem is so obvious. Just what is it that you think should be taking place and what is that happens that you don't like ?

You said: Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

I don't agree.

Why don't we step back and examine what it is that you anticipate should be happening.....or what you would like to see happen.

Damn... Work in the quality field?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

A case in point.

I don't know that the problem is so obvious. Just what is it that you think should be taking place and what is that happens that you don't like ?

You said: Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

I don't agree.

Why don't we step back and examine what it is that you anticipate should be happening.....or what you would like to see happen.

Damn... Work in the quality field?

People don't like it.

It takes time.

It takes stepping out of the fire, back into the frying pan, and even further....to get the perspectives you need to make quality decisions.

A lot of my professional life has been spent dealing with cleaning up the shitty jobs people have done because they just wanted to "get on with it".

 

[flacaltenn]

This is an Invite Only thread. If your member name does not appear in the alert call list -- DO NOT POST HERE -- do not even use the rating buttons on posts in this thread.

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We are opening the Invite Only threads in this forum. You may continue to post threads under the OLD structured debate rules OR identify the thread as Invite Only as given in the auxiliary rules below.. READ THEM CAREFULLY. There have been a couple edits since the Announcement of the feature...

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Invite List Below.
Shelzin
westwall
Sun Devil 92
katsteve2012
Mac1958
NewsVine_Mariyam
WinterBorn
Tom Paine 1949
OldLady
FA_Q2

Welcome to the big experiment.. We designed this optional form of discussion a couple years ago now to create little foxholes for folks to gather from the bigger wars around us.. It's hardly been used.. I'm thinking it's time to create some distance from the raging incitements and partisan clashes and attempt to revive the ability to have discussions. The intent was not EXCLUDE, but to allow smaller groups to have discussions that don't get constantly "photo-bombed" by folks really NOT interested in discussion..

Hope you've seen the Breakfast Club... One of my fav movies of all time.. A bunch of folks from radically different backgrounds and principles get randomly tossed together by the principal and end up having the most HONEST discussions of their lives.. Actually DID change them.. BECAUSE of the honesty and the seclusion of the process. The door is not locked -- you don't have to do detention here. But I'm hoping that at LEAST we have an honest discussion while we're here..

The "list" was my best guess at people I've talked with that are more interested in solutions and principles than they are in "winning" elections.. My HOPE is that this is just first of MANY "detentions" we'll have to WORK on solutions and problem solving instead of constantly suffering shell shock from the din of partisan warfare.,..

So for starters, the obvious problem is how in hell did we lose the ability to rationally discuss issues and problems that are stacking up like an ice jam on a Maine river in March??

Everything is political.. Politics is very hypocritical and dishonest. So when every discussion is DRIVEN by politics, all ya got is hypocrisy, dishonesty and division.. That's expected... But when that dishonesty, hypocrisy and division starts killing your country and making social media a virtual wasteland of shouting and bickering -- what CAN YOU DO???

Media is no help... Elected leaders aren't really a help. They are the generals in this war. From MY foxhole, things are pretty rough and desperate and bringing out the WORST in America... How do we convince people to check their principles and weigh in on THOSE -- rather than their party affiliations?

Staying focused on solutions will obviously be challenging. Far too many in the forum now equate principles with political party affiliation.

So the first question is how do you even begin to talk to people who think that way if their thought process is totally based on who is on "the left or the right"?

Yeah, I sometimes get the feeling that if folks on social media dont match you up as a square or round peg -- they just don't know how to speak anymore... LOL....

In reality, there are no "uniform principles" attached to a party allegiance... Not even for Libertarians as I am.. We bicker a lot amongst ourselves, but DO generally agree on the basics.. Parties that don't EXPECT to win can HAVE principles I guess...

I think most Americans will listen to solution based thinking that isn't the usual Dem/Rep talking point nonsense. After all, the idea is to FIX things, not perpetuate a party in power...

 

[Shelzin]

People don't like it.

It takes time.

It takes stepping out of the fire, back into the frying pan, and even further....to get the perspectives you need to make quality decisions.

A lot of my professional life has been spent dealing with cleaning up the shitty jobs people have done because they just wanted to "get on with it".

Yeah... Well... I was once a Quality Manager for the ... I guess it really doesn't matter to my point. I think you would do pretty good job at it. They have this procedure for when you get non-conforming product. It's called a 8D

It's a problem solving exercise that you give the customer to show that you addressed their problem. Like you were talking about, there is a "Root Problem" that needs to be addressed. However, almost everybody gets that "Root Problem" wrong, because people flat out like to finger point. It's not my fault.

They like to promote the "5 Why" system, which more or less means you come up with the problem. And ask "Why did that happen?" Ok... Now ask "Why did THAT happen?" And so on down the line. It absolutely never fails if you do this exercise honestly. The fault always lies with the person in charge of that department, or the department of HR. It is never the workers fault that actually made, shipped, or did anything with the product.

Every time this has to be done it is a self evaluation of the Management team. It's all about taking responsibility for those things you are paid, and you have accepted, to be responsible for. Processes are changed, retraining of workers, or more/different quality checks are done. Sometimes all of the above. Then it's verified that it did actually address and fix the problem before another order is ran of that part to be shipped to the customer.

Problem solved.

It all starts with Personal Responsibility. To actually question what you could or should have done, rather than what you did.

The majority of people who follow politics aren't even embarrassed for being hypocrites anymore, how the hell are they going to take responsibility for themselves, let alone anything/anyone else around them when identity politics, rather than personal responsibility, drives the behavior.

Being a Republican or Democrat has come to mean I agree with everything, or disagree with everything, the RNC or DNC is saying. Just on principle, and trying to vilify the "other team" rather than saying "What is the problem, how can I help fix it?"

Lying isn't going to help anything. Acting like a bigot/hypocrite isn't going to do it either. It only hurts your chosen ideology, and frankly you aren't taking responsibility for it, but will happily claim the win if voted in!!! But if you lost, why did you lose? What's broken?

5 Why system...

Why matters.

 

[flacaltenn]

So the first question is how do you even begin to talk to people who think that way if their thought process is totally based on who is on "the left or the right"?

That's a better way of expressing this topic.. Pick a thread on USMB. By page 2 it devolves into a bidding war of -- which party did this first? -- or which party did this worse? How do you come into that to point out what's RIGHT and what's WRONG as a mere "independent" thinker? There are no winners if BOTH sides have committed the same sin -- but the current issue is dismissed because "Both sides have done this"... So it's a draw.. Even if it's horribly wrong..

Like for instance, it was apparent to me that our MidEast policies sucked way back in the 80s. We never learned the lesson that we were not gonna "democratize" the Arab world.. But yet, we've bombed or mucked with almost ALL of the countries in that region at one time or another.. And thru it all, I was on the "outs" with one or BOTH parties until just the past 10 years or so... It was WRONG stupid policy.. But all the discussions were about which parties did it MORE or WORSE... Not about whether it was right thinking or not...

I'm sure Mac is agree when I say, it's a lack of HONESTY to ADMIT that they're party was ever wrong - and probably a sin that can get your (D) or (R) credentials revoked.. We're just not making decisions on right or wrong anymore.. The noisy ones are making decisions on what gets their POWER retained...

 

[flacaltenn]

One thing I will say and maybe you and/or the other participants can help fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge base, is that one of the challenges I have is the way people use words such as Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, right-wing, left-wing, etc. as slurs. It's almost as if they're angry that they can't use the N-word anymore, at least not if they dont' want to be censured in someway, so they've come up with other words they use as a substitutes. I can't remember who explained it, but they've essentialy abstracted what they are saying to a non-offensive form however the manner in which they use the words still conveys their derision.

It's the ultimate stereotyping to try to fit ALL of us into a "left right" Hogwarts style sorting.. (Harry Potter reference).. At least Hogwarts had 4 or 5 bins to sort into..,. LOL.... It's impossible that the ENTIRE NATION is either Repub or Dem -- left wing or right wing.. Largely BECAUSE those party principles are NOT solid and NOT consistent and CANNOT cover the spectrum of what people believe are principles or priorities... Both sides are suffering fractures in their diminishing bases.. And you're correct, it has more value as a derision, than it does in locating what anyone actually believes or knows..

Another part of the problem with the way they use these terms is the blanket condemnation of their target group. Anyone with half a brain knows that very few things in life are absolute and generally there are exceptions to everything. They don't seem to understand (or care) that even if the term is applicable to 51% of the group, 49% is not a small number when representing people who don't fit the stereotypes they're tossing out. And realistically, it's not even that close to being 50/50.

Absolutely.. And it's not at all elitist to point out that 85% of those fractions do not really invest time or effort in UNDERSTANDING the issues.. When these "labels" are so EASY to scapegoat and stereotype, there is not a LOT of work or thought that goes into understanding WHY one should be on one side of the issue or the other... If you've been divided into the wings, all ya need to know are the current talking points.,. No history, no numbers, no consideration of bad side effects of the issues...

 

[flacaltenn]

First, nothing of substance can be accomplished unless and until each tribe holds its own accountable for its actions and intellectual dishonesty. I do see some of that on both ends, so there actually is some hope there. There's the Lincoln Project on the Right, and individual progressive pundits like Krystal Ball, Sam Harris and Matt Taibbi on the Left. Just show us some honest, constructive critical thinking and self-reflection, instead of your latest round of childish poo-flinging.

They should be doing this all along the 150 history of HAVING these 2 parties as a duopoly... But it's the ultimate form of cult behavior to defend the indefensible.. Legislation dies and withers simply on the calculation that the minority can't give the majority the credit for passing anything needed (like DACA or criminal justice reform).. It's a massive show of belligerence and cynical opposition.. Caused MOSTLY because both parties have perverted the PROCESS in Congress to support a 2 party system which is NOT the idea of the founders or in the interest of the people to have them "nesting there" with their extra-legal rules and procedures..

I just don't have the URGE to HELP them reform or re-invent themselves.. I think that's a fool's errand to change ANY CULTURE that's foreign and slightly antagonistic to you...

I know I've posted these a dozen times on USMB -- but THIS crisis was predicted at the very start of our nation...
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
JOHN ADAMS, letter to Jonathan Jackson, October 2, 1789

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796

Second, given that we are such a celebrity-driven society, I strongly suspect it's going to take some high-level names on each end to say "enough is enough". Sports? Popular culture? There will have to be several, so that a momentum can be created. And most likely, it will require an important (even catastrophic) event to get the ball rolling. Right now, I don't think we're anywhere near this. And worse, each tribe is waiting for the other to be the adult in the room and make the first move.

Certainly this aint gonna come from within the party structures. Or even from the loyal zealots attached to the parties.. Both sides are suffering leadership crises, structural failure from lurching left and right and that honesty thingy...

I think OUTSIDERS who have had enough of the dicing and slicing of loyalty and the dishonesty and hypocrisy are gonna have to get loud... Could be celebrities involved, but those are just "influencers".. These would be in the form of independent thinkers that just RIP thru all that and find a resonance with the LARGER alienated electorate.. It's dangerous in the fact, this could give rise to some awful "populist" manipulators. But there could also be "populist" independents that care more about EXPOSING the decay and the cynical calculations of these aging, inept party organizations -- then they care about "winning".. And that's a BIG start to deprogramming the anger and division...

NONE of that happens until the COUNTRY can focus and think out of the boxes we've been packed into.. But the arguments for INDEPENDENT leadership or even new parties are just so damn easy to tick off right now...

 

[flacaltenn]

If we really have lost that skill, if reason and civility are like muscles - use 'em or lose 'em - this just continues to decay.

I don't think WE'VE lost that skill.. But the media sure has.. And the media DRIVES the conversations in this country.. With both sides dividing up the media into the Left Twix and Right Twix models (must need desert) -- they've REMOVED honesty and objectivity from the national conversation.. So in addition to those "influencers" and role models you're searching for -- we need some of THEM in journalism also to call out right and wrong and bring things back to reality and common sense...

 

[flacaltenn]

I will be rude and say you are all way ahead of the game.

I spend a lot of time talking with people about problem definition.

If someone does not like something, they perceive that it is a "problem", but when asked to define it in clear terms they often cannot.

How will you know when you have achieved what you want in specific terms.

This was my approach when we discussed Obamacare. People would say Medicare for all or Universal health care for all. I would ask, just what does that mean...in specifics.

ONCE you've agreed upon a definition of the problem, the solutions become pretty straightforward and much of the antipathy that exists around different points of view ceases to be relevant.

Agree... I'm a scientist/engineer.. So I can't skip over spending the most productive time doing THAT part correctly or I'm wasting time...

What is it that you want ?

What is reality ?

What is the gap ?

How are you measuring it ?

I want MORE "signal" and less noise.. And definitely less anger and suspicion of "the other"...

Reality is -- the noise is deafening and the signal of intelligence behind it is exponentially decreasing every day.

The "gap" has separated the country into a Dolby Sound Stereo squeal of jibberish and bad faith between the speakers..

The metrics of this are the poorer and poorer choices we get to choose from for leadership or media and the rate at which I'm turning off corporations, media, and politics and BANNING IT from my life...

 

[flacaltenn]

A lot of my professional life has been spent dealing with cleaning up the shitty jobs people have done because they just wanted to "get on with it".

Time to use those skills to clean up politics... LOL... Go volunteer for Mac's army of sane people.,..

 

[Shelzin]

That's a better way of expressing this topic.. Pick a thread on USMB. By page 2 it devolves into a bidding war of -- which party did this first? -- or which party did this worse? How do you come into that to point out what's RIGHT and what's WRONG as a mere "independent" thinker? There are no winners if BOTH sides have committed the same sin -- but the current issue is dismissed because "Both sides have done this"... So it's a draw.. Even if it's horribly wrong..

It's not a draw. They are both wrong. Not to go all Vulcan on this, but... That's the long and short of it... Both are correct, in that they are both wrong.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I will be rude and say you are all way ahead of the game.

I spend a lot of time talking with people about problem definition.

If someone does not like something, they perceive that it is a "problem", but when asked to define it in clear terms they often cannot.

How will you know when you have achieved what you want in specific terms.

This was my approach when we discussed Obamacare. People would say Medicare for all or Universal health care for all. I would ask, just what does that mean...in specifics.

ONCE you've agreed upon a definition of the problem, the solutions become pretty straightforward and much of the antipathy that exists around different points of view ceases to be relevant.

Agree... I'm a scientist/engineer.. So I can't skip over spending the most productive time doing THAT part correctly or I'm wasting time...

What is it that you want ?

What is reality ?

What is the gap ?

How are you measuring it ?

I want MORE "signal" and less noise.. And definitely less anger and suspicion of "the other"...

Reality is -- the noise is deafening and the signal of intelligence behind it is exponentially decreasing every day.

The "gap" has separated the country into a Dolby Sound Stereo squeal of jibberish and bad faith between the speakers..

The metrics of this are the poorer and poorer choices we get to choose from for leadership or media and the rate at which I'm turning off corporations, media, and politics and BANNING IT from my life...

While a I agree with your statements, I don't know that it really defines a problem. This is more a manifestation of an issue.

Many times people will say....in the end we all want the same thing. I don't agree with that. Do you think that is true.

If so, then how do you proceed.

And if you don't think everyone wants the same thing...then how do you balance those different wants.

It is as much a question of process as it is results.

Now, you have to decide if emotion is the key to decision making for many people. To get to emotion, you have to generally get past or penetrate some level of mental (logical) awareness. Do people succumb to that to easily.

Is everyone made the same ?

And your first statement is key......trust is gone. And without trust, it is very difficult to cooperate.