Debate Now Is the Cultural Paradigm Shifting Along with the Demographic Changes?

[Wuwei]

Yes, certainly. And Trump's 6,000 or so lies and misleading statements during his reign speak to the fact that the latter effort is well on its way.

But, why is this important? First, of course, because truth and truthfulness are being defined out of the cultural paradigm. If lying becomes so ubiquitous as to be the norm, truth itself is rendered redundant. That is so because the stereotypical "they all do it" is always there to spread the blame. So, yes, they are destroying the truth, and with it all the pursuits that usually uncover it, like science or courts of law.

Second, if truth becomes less and less relevant, and so do science and courts of law, that removes two of the biggest obstacles to autocratic rule at the Dear Leader's whim: Science as the societal force meant to tell lawmakers and the Executive what works, and what doesn't, and courts of law as the societal force that imposes rules on governance.

All in all, Trump, the megalomaniac and wannabe autocrat, is on a mission, and it should be clear to all what's going on. Trump's fawning over Putin, Duterte, Xi Jinping, or Kim, is no accident. That is what a paradigm shift really looks like, and few seem to get the whole picture.

Here are a few ancillary notes on truth:
There is a distinction between the truth and the whole truth.

I read a very short book by Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit. Despite its title, he is very erudite. He carefully distinguishes between hyperbole, a lie and bullshit.

A lie is a falsehood while knowing the truth.

Bullshit is a falsehood without knowing nor caring what the truth might be.

Giuliani, Kellyanne Conway and Trump often fall into the latter category. The irony is that Spicer and Huckabee as Press Secretaries lied when they defended Trump's bullshit.

Of lesser relevance, Kurt Gödel's famous theorem showed that in number theory there are theorems that are true, but cannot be proved true.
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[Olde Europe]

Amidst Hillary's accusations of Trump colluding with the Russians during the campaign, Trump mentioned her 30,000 missing emails [...]

Thanks. Let's just note that Hillary at no point during the campaign accused Trump of collusion. The investigation into the Trump campaign's collusion with Russia came publicly known only after the election.

Please rephrase that by addressing the points I have made. When you start your comments accusing me of a 'grim vision of an impending dystopia', I have a very hard time taking you at all seriously that you are in any way interested in having a civil discussion.

For example: You say "But my feeling is that today's liberals want a democracy leaning toward a government with a few supported programs such as health care and attempts to help lift the impoverished to a better life."

Let's review what the liberals have campaigned on:
The 1918 Democrat Party platform:
Party Platform - Democrats

A long laundry list of how GOVERNMENT will create Utopia under the liberal/progressive/leftists/statist agenda. There is nothing in the entire platform suggesting that ANYTHING is beyond the interest or scope of government policy and activity. Of course they won't do it--at least they never have--but it is targeted at getting votes (and campaign contributions) from those who want government to have the power to create that Utopia and want to be relieved of the responsibility themselves..

The Republicans aren't a hell of a lot better. Their laundry list just focused on a different constituency of people who want government to empower THEM with the right and ability to chart their own futures and who want government off their backs except where they wanted government to exercise its power.

President Trump, being neither ideologue nor partisan nor politically correct nor politically motivated pretty much ignored both platforms which is how he beat out 16 very well qualified, well known Republicans in the primary and then beat the Democrat candidate that pretty much the entire media and all the experts said could not lose.

His platform:
--Reform onerous taxes and regulations that were crippling the American economy. (That including revoking and replacing Obamacare.)

--Reform trade and other policies that were draining American jobs and resources and thereby reverse that trend.

--Strengthen the military so that no nation will dare rise up against us or our allies and we hopefully won't need to use it.

--Border security and immigration reform that makes sense.

--Reform the court system by placing judges that respect the law and the Constitution rather than see their role as cirumventing or rewriting both.

--Reforming foreign policy so that America does not always get the short end of the stick.

He has done his very best to accomplish his objectives and goals as no other President in my lifetime has done. And there isn't a single thing on his list that suggests it is government's job to make America great again but it is the role of government to make it possible for Americans to be who they are and make America great again.

I support him in pretty much all of his vision and purpose so I can overlook his occasional gaffes, when he is sometimes wrong, those cringeworthy tweets now and then, etc. I didn't elect somebody I could fawn over and admire. I elected somebody who shared my vision and goals and if he is at times unlovable, so be it.

But the cultural shift in political dynamics has created a poisonous environment where the left doesn't see it as enough to oppose his policies. They see it as their mandate to destroy him in every aspect of his life no matter who gets hurt in the process. And they turn their venom on anybody--people like me--who supports anything he says or does.

That sociopolitical venom is being directed at anybody who strays from the sociopolitical point of view of the left. It is no longer debating policy toward arriving at agreement or compromise. It is a matter of destruction of any who dissent and there are no barriers to how that will be accomplished no matter how cruel, unfair, unkind, or unjustifiable.

You are more sensible than most and I have appreciated that. But even you, being more left of center than right, couldn't resist taking a shot at me and my point of view in your very first sentence of your post.

This is an amazing text, from the first line to the last, and let me express my sincere gratitude for it. It is of utmost clarity, and even written in enjoyable English, which seems to become rarer every day. So, thank you. (I mean it.)

Of course, I disagree with basically every word, and disagree with Trump, or your assessment of his policies or accomplishments, just as vigorously as you agree with Trump and his policies. That's just as it is. This is a place that celebrates free speech, and that's why we all are here. Disagreement with Trump, or with you, is just as legit as is agreement.

And you're right...

And bringing it back to the OP of this thread, it is a fact that we have seen a dramatic and unprecedented cultural shifts over the last half century or so. But the truth of how and why those shifts have occurred is what we are discussing.​

... let's get back to the shift in cultural paradigm we've been witnessing.

For to me that shift over the last half century is a consequence of women, minorities, gays entering the political arena, finding their voice. On top of the political development, the shift is also in large part compelled by the basic principle of equality before the law, which works its logic towards including more and more groups, as there's no logical justification for excluding them.

 

[Olde Europe]

Here are a few ancillary notes on truth:
There is a distinction between the truth and the whole truth.

I read a very short book by Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit. Despite its title, he is very erudite. He carefully distinguishes between hyperbole, a lie and bullshit.

A lie is a falsehood while knowing the truth.

Bullshit is a falsehood without knowing nor caring what the truth might be.

Giuliani, Kellyanne Conway and Trump often fall into the latter category. The irony is that Spicer and Huckabee as Press Secretaries lied when they defended Trump's bullshit.

Of lesser relevance, Kurt Gödel's famous theorem showed that in number theory there are theorems that are true, but cannot be proved true.
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Frankfurt's On Bullshit is one of my favorites. It should be compulsory reading. Gödel's theorem is way, way beyond my capabilities.

Nothing, I hold, is ever the "whole truth". However, deliberately curtailing the truth with the intent to deceive is called "lying by omission", and rightly so.

Trump is a liar who serves up bullshit with the intent to deceive, to keep his base riled up, and to flatter himself to prop up his feeble, needy ego. "Americans can sleep soundly. North Korea is no longer a threat." Liar.

Let's get back to cultural paradigm shifts, shall we? I am tired of talking about Trump, except in case he serves to explain shifts, or is the result thereof.

If I may propose, we absolutely should have a closer look at the right's strident opposition to anything PC, and whether that tells us something about those shifts. Any thoughts?

 

[deanrd]

Is a non-white majority America still "America"?

America has never been a "white" country. We have always been multicultural.

Not according to Republicans.

 

[deanrd]

So, this isn’t a discussion about culture? Just another pointless, partisan go-round?

Oh, it's culture all right.

On one side you have white Republicans, on the other side you have everyone else. The difference between diversity (Democrats) and a lack of diversity (Republicans).

It's not just partisan rhetoric, you can go to their conventions and SEE it for yourself.

 

[fncceo]

not according to Republicans.

I'm very much a Republican. So, your dogmatic stereotypes are less and accurate.

 

[Unkotare]

So, this isn’t a discussion about culture? Just another pointless, partisan go-round?

Oh, it's culture all right.

On one side you have white Republicans, on the other side you have everyone else. The difference between diversity (Democrats) and a lack of diversity (Republicans).

It's not just partisan rhetoric, you can go to their conventions and SEE it for yourself.

Empty partisan nonsense again.

 

[Wuwei]

Let's get back to cultural paradigm shifts, shall we? I am tired of talking about Trump, except in case he serves to explain shifts, or is the result thereof.

If I may propose, we absolutely should have a closer look at the right's strident opposition to anything PC, and whether that tells us something about those shifts. Any thoughts?

Here are some generalities that I think are worthwhile.

Political correctness has a wide spectrum.

A sincere wish to change “mankind” to “peoplekind”.

The pressure to change the “Red Skins” name.

At the other end of the spectrum is vicious belittling of specific people or groups.
“John McCain is not a war hero. I like people that weren't captured.”

Although the idea of PC has been around for a long time. It more recently got a name and abbreviation for it. The name, PC, has now crystallized the vague concept into almost a material entity that people can rally around, and define or reject. PC will enjoy wide publicity in every medium. But the definition must remain vague because it differs among groups.

There is a large gray area between a malicious slur that offends most, to a mild offense taken by a small group. PC characterization runs a gamut from bullies to over-sensitivity. It's another facet of our culture that will distract the media and hoi polloi from deeper issues they should be concerned with.

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[Olde Europe]

Political correctness has a wide spectrum.

A sincere wish to change “mankind” to “peoplekind”.

The pressure to change the “Red Skins” name.

At the other end of the spectrum is vicious belittling of specific people or groups.
“John McCain is not a war hero. I like people that weren't captured.”

Although the idea of PC has been around for a long time. It more recently got a name and abbreviation for it. The name, PC, has now crystallized the vague concept into almost a material entity that people can rally around, and define or reject. PC will enjoy wide publicity in every medium. But the definition must remain vague because it differs among groups.

There is a large gray area between a malicious slur that offends most, to a mild offense taken by a small group. PC characterization runs a gamut from bullies to over-sensitivity. It's another facet of our culture that will distract the media and hoi polloi from deeper issues they should be concerned with.

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Thanks. BTW, what's wrong with "humankind"?

At the core of PC stands the American (arguably: Human) Birth Defect. With that defect comes a propensity to project back into a glorious past all that was good and virtuous, which would then emerge as the "cultural paradigm", and to exclude everything we've called "dark" - racism and sexism, most notably. PC, I hold, tries to save that paradigm by suppressing speech indicating whatever was, and still is, "dark" about and within this culture, mandating speech that would treat everyone, regardless of skin color, gender, religion, sexual orientation (etc.) with equal respect.

There are several criticisms of PC on this thread, and I've picked one that seems to illustrate the goings-on most admirably:

That, plus the ability to use political correctness to either destroy people or bludgeon them into submission in a way only a dedicated Fascist or Nazi could love, is maybe the most significant cultural shift.​

I'd suggest to take that seriously, as it's one of the main drivers of current societal developments. As minority populations grow, and the birth defect is still shaping life throughout the nation, the paragraph above seems to indicate there's an insurrection of some sort afoot, or already happening. Let's call it "Bannonism".

A "plutocratic dystopia" from above, and a White insurrection from below, and a minority-majority in the near future... how could that end well?

 

[Wuwei]

Thanks. BTW, what's wrong with "humankind"?

At the core of PC stands the American (arguably: Human) Birth Defect. With that defect comes a propensity to project back into a glorious past all that was good and virtuous, which would then emerge as the "cultural paradigm", and to exclude everything we've called "dark" - racism and sexism, most notably. PC, I hold, tries to save that paradigm by suppressing speech indicating whatever was, and still is, "dark" about and within this culture, mandating speech that would treat everyone, regardless of skin color, gender, religion, sexual orientation (etc.) with equal respect.

There are several criticisms of PC on this thread, and I've picked one that seems to illustrate the goings-on most admirably:

That, plus the ability to use political correctness to either destroy people or bludgeon them into submission in a way only a dedicated Fascist or Nazi could love, is maybe the most significant cultural shift.
I'd suggest to take that seriously, as it's one of the main drivers of current societal developments. As minority populations grow, and the birth defect is still shaping life throughout the nation, the paragraph above seems to indicate there's an insurrection of some sort afoot, or already happening. Let's call it "Bannonism".

A "plutocratic dystopia" from above, and a White insurrection from below, and a minority-majority in the near future... how could that end well?

Well I have not thought of PC as a liberal weapon to force US culture away from the “idyllic”1940's. But. If Banonites think that is an organized effort by nefarious liberals, then I think it is a conspiracy theory. The idea of weakening PC seems to be an issue that is a subset of the broader less defined Deep State.

The plutocracy has no compunctions in attempting to weaken PC. It serves them well. That only makes the liberal forces more avid. I always thought the next American revolution would be by minorities and their white supporters up in arms against the plutocracy.

But you are suggesting that it would be a White insurrection … against what or who? They are a danger to me because they may become the useful idiots of the plutocracy. That would certainly become a cultural paradigm shift to say the least.

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[Olde Europe]

Well I have not thought of PC as a liberal weapon to force US culture away from the “idyllic”1940's. But. If Banonites think that is an organized effort by nefarious liberals, then I think it is a conspiracy theory. The idea of weakening PC seems to be an issue that is a subset of the broader less defined Deep State.

The plutocracy has no compunctions in attempting to weaken PC. It serves them well. That only makes the liberal forces more avid. I always thought the next American revolution would be by minorities and their white supporters up in arms against the plutocracy.

But you are suggesting that it would be a White insurrection … against what or who? They are a danger to me because they may become the useful idiots of the plutocracy. That would certainly become a cultural paradigm shift to say the least.

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You know, what I am trying to say is, take the almost inexplicable venom, as expressed here, seriously:

That, plus the ability to use political correctness to either destroy people or bludgeon them into submission in a way only a dedicated Fascist or Nazi could love, is maybe the most significant cultural shift.​

That's Nazis or fascists destroying people, or bludgeoning them into submission, using PC as a weapon.

And no, unless the alt-right can mobilize major parts of the army, there will be no armed White insurrection with any hope of succeeding. Rather, there might be - remember they're fighting against Nazis and fascists - all kinds of isolated events, ranging in severity from McVeigh to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge occupation and pipe bombs sent to "liberals".

Other than that, it's going to be the same old same old, voter suppression and gerrymandering, with staggering results, in conjunction with "White grievance" campaigns mobilizing the "Deplorables" - namely, racists, nativists, and sexists - all riding under the banner of resistance against the oppressive, destructive rule of PC.


That is to say, the most marked cultural shift in a still-white majority country I expect to be the re-normalization of speech formerly suppressed by PC speech codes in the name of, you know, self-defense and freedom. The fight against the unbearable imposition that everyone, even those "not like us", be treated with respect, their humanity acknowledged, will be a major characteristic of things to come, or so the anti-PC venom seems to suggest. The first signs of same are already there in the form of advocacy that business owners should be allowed to discriminate against would-be clients at will. Segregated lunch counters, anyone?

And yes, the plutocracy will smile over all this, because as long as the white majority is most frightened by the rise of minorities and consumed by the fight against PC, the root evil will have an even freer hand to rule.

 

[Wuwei]

Well I have not thought of PC as a liberal weapon to force US culture away from the “idyllic”1940's. But. If Banonites think that is an organized effort by nefarious liberals, then I think it is a conspiracy theory. The idea of weakening PC seems to be an issue that is a subset of the broader less defined Deep State.

The plutocracy has no compunctions in attempting to weaken PC. It serves them well. That only makes the liberal forces more avid. I always thought the next American revolution would be by minorities and their white supporters up in arms against the plutocracy.

But you are suggesting that it would be a White insurrection … against what or who? They are a danger to me because they may become the useful idiots of the plutocracy. That would certainly become a cultural paradigm shift to say the least.

.

You know, what I am trying to say is, take the almost inexplicable venom, as expressed here, seriously:

That, plus the ability to use political correctness to either destroy people or bludgeon them into submission in a way only a dedicated Fascist or Nazi could love, is maybe the most significant cultural shift.​

That's Nazis or fascists destroying people, or bludgeoning them into submission, using PC as a weapon.

And no, unless the alt-right can mobilize major parts of the army, there will be no armed White insurrection with any hope of succeeding. Rather, there might be - remember they're fighting against Nazis and fascists - all kinds of isolated events, ranging in severity from McVeigh to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge occupation and pipe bombs sent to "liberals".

Other than that, it's going to be the same old same old, voter suppression and gerrymandering, with staggering results, in conjunction with "White grievance" campaigns mobilizing the "Deplorables" - namely, racists, nativists, and sexists - all riding under the banner of resistance against the oppressive, destructive rule of PC.


That is to say, the most marked cultural shift in a still-white majority country I expect to be the re-normalization of speech formerly suppressed by PC speech codes in the name of, you know, self-defense and freedom. The fight against the unbearable imposition that everyone, even those "not like us", be treated with respect, their humanity acknowledged, will be a major characteristic of things to come, or so the anti-PC venom seems to suggest. The first signs of same are already there in the form of advocacy that business owners should be allowed to discriminate against would-be clients at will. Segregated lunch counters, anyone?

And yes, the plutocracy will smile over all this, because as long as the white majority is most frightened by the rise of minorities and consumed by the fight against PC, the root evil will have an even freer hand to rule.

Yes, I know what you are trying to say. There are a lot of stirrings and undercurrents of alt-right mobilization, but the left is capable too. There is the defunct SDS and the current Antifa, and a host of less vigorous groups like unions and stronger feminism. North Korea, North Vietnam, and Afghanistan proved a strong sense of injustice is a powerful motivator against a stronger military. (Note to others reading this: I don't want revolution of any sort in the US. Let's all try to chill out.)

Many express fear of the Utopian vision pushed by liberals, while liberals fear the same for the conservatives. I believe the tea party and Bannon visions would lead to terrible unintended consequences. Corporations are gaining more control over lower education, prisons, etc. Outsourcing social entities to corporations motivated by profit is a bad idea. The irony is that Bannon wants to see corporate “Judo-Christian values” that were present in times of lore. But he is sadly mistaken that the current mega corporations will abide by that.

Yes, anti-PC is a growing weapon but that is only one facet of the problem. I live near where Scientology is rampant. Investigative reporters of the local papers found deep deep loyalty to the crap that they were brainwashed to believe. Then there is Jim Jones who managed a mass suicide of 900 of his followers.

People are not immune to brainwashing and it is running rampant in political ads, tweets, facebook etc. I fear that it is working in the US population. I truly fear a dystopia is afoot, but I don't know what kind yet because the US is teetering on an unstable political system right now.

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[Olde Europe]

Yes, I know what you are trying to say. There are a lot of stirrings and undercurrents of alt-right mobilization, but the left is capable too. There is the defunct SDS and the current Antifa, and a host of less vigorous groups like unions and stronger feminism. North Korea, North Vietnam, and Afghanistan proved a strong sense of injustice is a powerful motivator against a stronger military. (Note to others reading this: I don't want revolution of any sort in the US. Let's all try to chill out.)

Many express fear of the Utopian vision pushed by liberals, while liberals fear the same for the conservatives. I believe the tea party and Bannon visions would lead to terrible unintended consequences. Corporations are gaining more control over lower education, prisons, etc. Outsourcing social entities to corporations motivated by profit is a bad idea. The irony is that Bannon wants to see corporate “Judo-Christian values” that were present in times of lore. But he is sadly mistaken that the current mega corporations will abide by that.

Yes, anti-PC is a growing weapon but that is only one facet of the problem. I live near where Scientology is rampant. Investigative reporters of the local papers found deep deep loyalty to the crap that they were brainwashed to believe. Then there is Jim Jones who managed a mass suicide of 900 of his followers.

People are not immune to brainwashing and it is running rampant in political ads, tweets, facebook etc. I fear that it is working in the US population. I truly fear a dystopia is afoot, but I don't know what kind yet because the US is teetering on an unstable political system right now.

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Yep. I read it all attentively, and it seems we're pretty much on the same page on all the issues touched, with the exception of any impending left-wing dystopia. You don't think feminists and Antifa will seriously sway the population, do you? I mean, there's MeToo, running on "Don't grab her by the whatevers without an invitation," which is where the nation already is, and now a few powerful men who thought themselves invincible will have a comeuppance. Antifa is marginalized, has a brawl here or there, and just about everyone rejects them. The same goes for Scientology, influential though they may be within the "church".

Have you actually taken the time to scroll through the Democrats' party platform? That's all so common sense, unsurprising and boring, no one gets through that without nodding off several times.

I hold, the so-called "fear of the Utopian vision pushed by liberals" expressed by the right is bogus - Bullshit in Harry's sense - a fear of a carefully crafted fiction that goes by the name of "socialism", and part of the larger ploy to befuddle the rubes. Certainly, there is nothing else out there that would match the stridency of the anti-PC venom AND would dramatically change the trajectory of the nation's development so as to cause a seismic cultural shift. There patently isn't, as far as I can see.

 

[Wuwei]

Yep. I read it all attentively, and it seems we're pretty much on the same page on all the issues touched, with the exception of any impending left-wing dystopia. You don't think feminists and Antifa will seriously sway the population, do you? I mean, there's MeToo, running on "Don't grab her by the whatevers without an invitation," which is where the nation already is, and now a few powerful men who thought themselves invincible will have a comeuppance. Antifa is marginalized, has a brawl here or there, and just about everyone rejects them. The same goes for Scientology, influential though they may be within the "church".

Have you actually taken the time to scroll through the Democrats' party platform? That's all so common sense, unsurprising and boring, no one gets through that without nodding off several times.

I hold, the so-called "fear of the Utopian vision pushed by liberals" expressed by the right is bogus - Bullshit in Harry's sense - a fear of a carefully crafted fiction that goes by the name of "socialism", and part of the larger ploy to befuddle the rubes. Certainly, there is nothing else out there that would match the stridency of the anti-PC venom AND would dramatically change the trajectory of the nation's development. There patently isn't, as far as I can see.

A few clarifications... The Antifa, feminists, a latent SDS, etc of today will not sway the country as they are now. But it is an indication that stronger groups of some sort may gain a larger following in the future if the liberal populace is motivated enough. My reference to Scientology and Jim Jones were meant only to be examples that American Exceptionalism doesn't mean the US people are not beyond serious brainwashing and shooting their assumed exceptionalism in the foot.

Yes I scrolled through the Democrat platform. I couldn't get through the table of contents before I nodded off. It would be better if the platform were more succinct so they could more easily turn it into sound bites and memes.

This is my thinking:

• A liberal dystopia would result from a much more aggressive (revolutionary) stance against the 1%, and the mega corporations through boycotts, demonstrations at stockholders meetings, larger and more frequent public demonstrations, and voter enfranchisement. Because perception of the economy is so fragile the bubble would burst and the economy could collapse. It would take a major restructuring to install the many pages of the Democratic platform and lift the country back to “Exceptionalism” and “being great again”.
  
  
• A conservative dystopia would involve privatization of many more social programs. Corporations will continue to merge into mega-corporations and be less responsible as regulations are eliminated. The US will then become a nation of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. The hoi polloi will be completely at their mercy.
  
  
• The much more likely case: the government pendulum will continue swinging left and right, and we will drift wherever the winds of media and memes take us, and die a slow death as China and Russia assume the global role that we had while we continue to bicker about abortion, the war on Christmas, and welfare queens.
  

 

[Olde Europe]

This is my thinking:

• A liberal dystopia would result from a much more aggressive (revolutionary) stance against the 1%, and the mega corporations through boycotts, demonstrations at stockholders meetings, larger and more frequent public demonstrations, and voter enfranchisement. Because perception of the economy is so fragile the bubble would burst and the economy could collapse. It would take a major restructuring to install the many pages of the Democratic platform and lift the country back to “Exceptionalism” and “being great again”.
  
  
• A conservative dystopia would involve privatization of many more social programs. Corporations will continue to merge into mega-corporations and be less responsible as regulations are eliminated. The US will then become a nation of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. The hoi polloi will be completely at their mercy.
  
  
• The much more likely case: the government pendulum will continue swinging left and right, and we will drift wherever the winds of media and memes take us, and die a slow death as China and Russia assume the global role that we had while we continue to bicker about abortion, the war on Christmas, and welfare queens.

Okay, thanks a lot.

The liberal dystopia I can't see happening, for anyone to the left of Senator Sanders would have serious problems with recruiting and fundraising, not to mention to get on any billboard outside of New York City or San Francisco. Moreover, taking corporate America to account wouldn't be much of a dystopia at all, and the fear they would collapse the U.S. economy is unfounded. Remember OWS? Moreover, any left-wing tendency would not shut out the thinking of the rest of the world to celebrate their own backwardness unchallenged, so there also wouldn't be much of a "dystopia". A decade from now, I would predict that none of that left-wing dystopia will have materialized.

The conservative dystopia I can actually see; it's just Koch & Co. winning, as they so often do. The hoi polloi are at their mercy, for the most part already. A decade from now, the Koch Bros. might be dead, but they or their ilk will still rule, and probably with fewer impediments.

The likely case is, well, likely, for the next decade, unless the anti-PC drive wins out. That is not because the U.S. will die, but because the U.S. is a problem-preserving spectacle of a plutocratic "democracy". Nothing ever gets solved, because a persisting problem presents a fund-raising opportunity and ammunition against the respective other side. Gun rights, abortion, gay marriage, female equality, you name it, keeping the wound open benefits one major party, or both parties, and thus it's being kept open. I can see that happening.

...........................................

I guess, this thread has run its course for now, hasn't it? You have the last word, if you want it, and don't forget to switch off the lights when you leave. Oh, and thanks for the gentle and interesting interaction. Much appreciated.

 

[Wuwei]

I think I'm more paranoid than you. I fear the it-will-never-happen-here complacency. Yes, it was a refreshing dialog. At this point I will wait and see, and keep my sanity largely by getting the news from the Borowitz Report and the Onion.

I avidly get TV political and national perspectives from The Late Show with Colbert, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, and The Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
Example of John Oliver on HBO if you have not seen him:

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

This is my thinking:

• A liberal dystopia would result from a much more aggressive (revolutionary) stance against the 1%, and the mega corporations through boycotts, demonstrations at stockholders meetings, larger and more frequent public demonstrations, and voter enfranchisement. Because perception of the economy is so fragile the bubble would burst and the economy could collapse. It would take a major restructuring to install the many pages of the Democratic platform and lift the country back to “Exceptionalism” and “being great again”.
  
  
• A conservative dystopia would involve privatization of many more social programs. Corporations will continue to merge into mega-corporations and be less responsible as regulations are eliminated. The US will then become a nation of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. The hoi polloi will be completely at their mercy.
  
  
• The much more likely case: the government pendulum will continue swinging left and right, and we will drift wherever the winds of media and memes take us, and die a slow death as China and Russia assume the global role that we had while we continue to bicker about abortion, the war on Christmas, and welfare queens.

Okay, thanks a lot.

The liberal dystopia I can't see happening, for anyone to the left of Senator Sanders would have serious problems with recruiting and fundraising, not to mention to get on any billboard outside of New York City or San Francisco. Moreover, taking corporate America to account wouldn't be much of a dystopia at all, and the fear they would collapse the U.S. economy is unfounded. Remember OWS? Moreover, any left-wing tendency would not shut out the thinking of the rest of the world to celebrate their own backwardness unchallenged, so there also wouldn't be much of a "dystopia". A decade from now, I would predict that none of that left-wing dystopia will have materialized.

The conservative dystopia I can actually see; it's just Koch & Co. winning, as they so often do. The hoi polloi are at their mercy, for the most part already. A decade from now, the Koch Bros. might be dead, but they or their ilk will still rule, and probably with fewer impediments.

The likely case is, well, likely, for the next decade, unless the anti-PC drive wins out. That is not because the U.S. will die, but because the U.S. is a problem-preserving spectacle of a plutocratic "democracy". Nothing ever gets solved, because a persisting problem presents a fund-raising opportunity and ammunition against the respective other side. Gun rights, abortion, gay marriage, female equality, you name it, keeping the wound open benefits one major party, or both parties, and thus it's being kept open. I can see that happening.

...........................................

I guess, this thread has run its course for now, hasn't it? You have the last word, if you want it, and don't forget to switch off the lights when you leave. Oh, and thanks for the gentle and interesting interaction. Much appreciated.

6 month check up---I chose this post to reply to..because it so encapsulates what I see happening--a bunch of mice hangin' out and discussing ways to kill, or at least tame, the cat. While the cat continues to play with his mouse farm..rewarding some..smashing others--and enjoying mouse on the dinner table..every day.
The real paradigm shifts in this country are foreseen by the prescient few..and ridden like hobby horses.

That is to say, the most marked cultural shift in a still-white majority country I expect to be the re-normalization of speech formerly suppressed by PC speech codes in the name of, you know, self-defense and freedom. The fight against the unbearable imposition that everyone, even those "not like us", be treated with respect, their humanity acknowledged, will be a major characteristic of things to come, or so the anti-PC venom seems to suggest. The first signs of same are already there in the form of advocacy that business owners should be allowed to discriminate against would-be clients at will. Segregated lunch counters, anyone?

And yes, the plutocracy will smile over all this, because as long as the white majority is most frightened by the rise of minorities and consumed by the fight against PC, the root evil will have an even freer hand to rule.

This is truth///thank you for articulating it so aptly.

 

[Olde Europe]

6 month check up---I chose this post to reply to..because it so encapsulates what I see happening--a bunch of mice hangin' out and discussing ways to kill, or at least tame, the cat. While the cat continues to play with his mouse farm..rewarding some..smashing others--and enjoying mouse on the dinner table..every day.
The real paradigm shifts in this country are foreseen by the prescient few..and ridden like hobby horses.

I am actually not that certain we're observing a paradigm shift. That would mean that the country changes toward a markedly different trajectory (which we can only see in retrospect). We may well see the last hooray, the rearguard battles, of a dwindling, reactionary minority of mostly old, irate, white males, while the U.S. society may have stumbled in 2016 but continues on course toward more inclusion, more diversity, and ultimately more acceptance and respect. What I hear and read from the younger generations appears to point to that. Admittedly, reading the geezers on this board would indicate there's dire straits ahead.

I guess, at the end of 2020 we'll know somewhat more about that.

 

[Monk-Eye]

" Over Spicing The Dish When Enough Is Enough "

* Uncontested Oration *

I think I'm more paranoid than you. I fear the it-will-never-happen-here complacency. Yes, it was a refreshing dialog. At this point I will wait and see, and keep my sanity largely by getting the news from the Borowitz Report and the Onion.
I avidly get TV political and national perspectives from The Late Show with Colbert, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, and The Daily Show with Trevor Noah.
Example of John Oliver on HBO if you have not seen him:

Why not add samantha bee to your list of foreign national political trolls pandering for the gluttony and inundation of social dependents ?

Those squawk boxes get on their well paid over indulgent soap boxes of sanctimonious preaching to the masses and step off to their affluent neighborhoods that are completely unaffected by a growing plebeian malaise .

* Reality Of Too Many Stop Breeding Into Poverty *

The Trump Administration Could Reject Legal Status For Immigrants If They Used Food Stamps Or Obamacare
Estimates of how many people would be affected range from the low millions to over 20 million, and advocates warn the rule change would cause families to preemptively drop out of crucial services like health care or children’s nutrition programs.

While it would be a drastic change to the immigration system, Congress would not be involved because the underlying law would remain unchanged. Since the early 1950s, the Immigration and Nationality Act has allowed the government to reject residency status to immigrants who were deemed a "public charge" — a term meaning a financial burden on society.


What the Trump rule would do is change how the government decides if someone is a public charge. Currently, the government examines whether someone is likely to be primarily dependent on government support, meaning they get more than 50% of their income through public payments such as welfare.


* Illegal Social Welfare Without Incidental Costs *

The Cost of Illegal Immigration to US Taxpayers | FAIR

* Tax Contributions By Illegals And State Local Costs *

* Total Impact *

 

[Wuwei]

Those squawk boxes get on their well paid over indulgent soap boxes of sanctimonious preaching to the masses and step off to their affluent neighborhoods that are completely unaffected by a growing plebeian malaise .

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to drag this down to politics, but Fox News is just as bad as left leaning media as far as "sanctimonious preaching to the masses." The Trump rallies are also in tune with that too.

However, now that you bring that up, the deepening polarization of the left and right is indeed a cultural paradigm shift. It is amazing that both polar extremes are roughly equal in population but quite at odds with what the countries priorities should be.

.