Israel, the 51st State of the USA & then maybe not (a repeat thread)

[Rigby5]

RE: Israel, the 51st State of the USA & then maybe not (a repeat thread)
SUBTOPIC: Poor Perspective on Israel
⁜→ Rigby5, et al,


(COMMENT)

it was in about the FY 2010 cycle that the US made a $10B loan to Israel. Since that time, Israel has not missed a payment or defaulted on any loan agreement with the US or the World Bank.

The International Rating
..........................................................................S&P...........................Moody.................FITCH

Israel​

AA-​

A1

A+

United States​

AA+​

Aaa

AAA

AAA

Israel's rating is much, much better than:

Egypt​

Greece​

Italy​

India​

Jordan​

Lebanon​

Oman​

Russia​

Spain​

Turkey​

The pro-Arab Palestinian factions and the Anti-Israel machine tends to overlook the Developmentally, Israel is well above any other regional nation, and has a Trading Economics (TE) credit rating

---

Trading Economics provides data for 20 million economic indicators from 196 countries including actual values, consensus figures, forecasts, historical time series and news. United States Rating - was last updated on Friday, November 26, 2021.


(COMMENT)

Well certainly, no one is going to minimize the difficulty in engaging and interception of high-speed indirect fire. Most air defense systems and air defense artillery detect and fire after a firing solution is established. It requires the intercepting weapon to develop a very high acceleration to achieve the speed necessary to strike the inbound weapon at effective stand-off distances. This scenario makes cource corrections f the intercept weapon difficult. The specific Artificial Intelligence (AI) has not yet been developed that will allow an airborne platform to detect and fire downward on inbound targets for safe intercept distances. This would require the interception device to be launched immediately on detection of the inbound target, which requires the interception device to be tracking and adjusting both course and speed for success. No one has that technology yet, but it is coming.


(COMMENT)

I will not even bother to debate this "illegitimate invader" comment. But however you want to address the Israelis, Give me the citation for the specific law and the specific event involded. Then we can have a basis for a discussion.

◈ What Crime are the Arab Palestinians violating and can be prosecuted for?​

◈ What violation is committed when someone spreads suc deceptive commentary which promotes acts of war?​

There is a difference between than Arab Palestinian's "Right to Self-Defense" and the Arab Palestinian who commit an offense which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power (the Israelis), an Arab Palestinian who commit an offense which is solely perform espionage, or serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power (Israel), or commit offences which have caused the death of people - no matter the race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status (any one at all). Arab Palestinians, no matter what cause they claim are subject to the prosecution under Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL). (See Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention)


(COMMENT)

I would often tell students, fact-checking is very important.

Like many words in English, "Jihad" can mean a number of things, depending on who is using it, how they use t (context), and the intent. You would be very hard-pressed to convince anyone who has listened to the Hostile Arab Palestinians or seen their actions that "jihad" is being used to convey anon-violent meaning.

Fatah: Murdering children is "legitimate human struggle" - when killer is Palestinian and victims are Israelis​

Hamas TV glorifies jihad, urges 'Death to Israel!'​

The PFLP says it is a "human right" for Palestinians to kill Jews​

View attachment 568643​

(COMMENT)

Yeah, I heard this allegation before. I don't support you were part of the US-Taliban negotiating team back in 2001.

Most Respectfully,
R

The financial rating for Israel has nothing to do with US foreign air and defense loans.
The link I provided claimed the money we give Israel is being laundered, so it is just being labeled as loans in order to hide it, even though it has NEVER been paid back and not expected to be paid back. A bad bank rating only happens when the person giving the loan reports the lack of payment.

As for international law, it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.
The 1948, 1967, or any war, did not allow for Israel to occupy Jerusalem, the East Bank, or anything beyond the 1948 UN division.
So it is Israel that then is the illegal, invading, aggressor, and then has no rights at all.
The rights of Palestine were established by the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres, which had Palestinian representative, but no Israeli representatives because Israel or any Jewish entity was never supposed to exist.

The point of Iron Shield is that the targets are ballistic, so have the simplest, slowest, and most predictable, 45 degree, parabolic trajectory. And even then, Iron Dome can only hit incoming that is pretty much directly aimed at the interceptors. Anything to the side gets through, and anything beyond the saturation threshold gets through. So it is useless for generalized situations.

But with "Jihad", I would agree there are multiple meanings and the rhetoric is pretty inflammatory, so hard to tell what any one user means.

 

[MJB12741]

Israel, the 51st State of the USA & then maybe not

For all practical purposes Israel is America’s 51st State. The US gives Israel 10’s of $billions of dollars each year and yet American Citizen’s did not vote for this.

What’s up?
I think it is time for a national vote on this.

Either we bring in Israel as our 51st State and they pay their fair share or we stop the $billions in handouts.

How do you vote-?

This report provides an overview of U.S. foreign assistance to Israel. It includes a review of past aid programs, data on annual assistance, and analysis of current issues. For general information on Israel, see CRS Report RL33476, Israel: Background and U.S. Relations, by Jim Zanotti. Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date, the United States has provided Israel $127.4 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received significant economic assistance.

BTW We, as in American citizens owe Israel nothing, nada, zip so I as---

In Jerusalem Israeli’s spit on Christians and the US press never reports it.

What’s up------?

In this world there are winners & losers. Sure easy to tell which is which by what you post. Thanks.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The financial rating for Israel has nothing to do with US foreign air and defense loans.
The link I provided claimed the money we give Israel is being laundered, so it is just being labeled as loans in order to hide it, even though it has NEVER been paid back and not expected to be paid back. A bad bank rating only happens when the person giving the loan reports the lack of payment.

As for international law, it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.
The 1948, 1967, or any war, did not allow for Israel to occupy Jerusalem, the East Bank, or anything beyond the 1948 UN division.
So it is Israel that then is the illegal, invading, aggressor, and then has no rights at all.
The rights of Palestine were established by the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres, which had Palestinian representative, but no Israeli representatives because Israel or any Jewish entity was never supposed to exist.

The point of Iron Shield is that the targets are ballistic, so have the simplest, slowest, and most predictable, 45 degree, parabolic trajectory. And even then, Iron Dome can only hit incoming that is pretty much directly aimed at the interceptors. Anything to the side gets through, and anything beyond the saturation threshold gets through. So it is useless for generalized situations.

But with "Jihad", I would agree there are multiple meanings and the rhetoric is pretty inflammatory, so hard to tell what any one user means.

it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.

There is no Palestine side of the UN division.

The 1948, 1967, or any war, did not allow for Israel to occupy Jerusalem, the East Bank, or anything beyond the 1948 UN division.

The Arabs really fucked up, didn't they?.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel, the 51st State of the USA & then maybe not (a repeat thread)
SUBTOPIC: Poor Perspective on Israel
⁜→ Rigby5, et al,

I think that we will have to agree on the disagreement.

The financial rating for Israel has nothing to do with US foreign air and defense loans.

(COMMENT)

I cannot find any delinquent or defaulted outstanding "loans" relative to the Air Defense Systems for Israel. It is such a very some aspect of the Qualitative Military Edge (QME).

The US is into deficit spending. We have to borrow the money from somewhere. Those interest payments are quite available in open source material. And that is a big part of the Fiscal and Monetary Risk Managemnt Assessment. When the debt is purchased, the foreign source generally knows what it is for and generally relays on the Accounts Payable to add in the Revenue to their General Fund (pressumablely for their Annual Budget forecast). But that is probably more then you wanted to know. As you can see, there is still funding available under "Loan Guarantees."

Ref: Congressional Research Service Report (RL33222)
U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel. Updated November 16, 2020.
by JimZanotti. with Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs

The link I provided claimed the money we give Israel is being laundered, so it is just being labeled as loans in order to hide it, even though it has NEVER been paid back and not expected to be paid back.

(COMMENT)

This idea that there is "money laundering" to shield it from Congressional Oversight is the stuff that conspiracies are made from. (The guys in the aluminum foil hats.). Sure, there is intelligence, security, and emergency (as well as diplomatic contingency funding) that is maintained on a separate ledger, but that is not laundering and it is reported in one fashion or another under congressional oversight. Just as any Class A Finance Officer.

A bad bank rating only happens when the person giving the loan reports the lack of payment.

(COMMENT)

Yeh, another fairy tale.

As for international law, it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.
The 1948, 1967, or any war, did not allow for Israel to occupy Jerusalem, the East Bank, or anything beyond the 1948 UN division.
So it is Israel that then is the illegal, invading, aggressor, and then has no rights at all.

(COMMENT)

Actually, the 1967 (Six-Day War) Conflict was actually a continuation of the 1948 War For Independence. The 1949 Armistice Agreement (using your example) (◈ S/1302/Rev.1 3 April 1949 ARMISTICE AGREEMENT BETWEEN JORDAN AND ISRAEL 3 April 1949, at Rhodes) Article XII(2) " shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved." The "peaceful settlement was finally made in 1994 (◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) which covered the entirety of the territory formerly under Jordanian Control. Article 3 - International Boundary of the Treaty sets the conditions and borders. Most people don't bother to read the fine print, but Annex Ia(2) sets the boundary back to the pre-May 1948 lines.

THEN, you have to take into the 1988 Abandonment of the territories west of the Jordan River, which by default, put it in the hands of the Israeli Defense Force. The Jordanians call it the "Disengagement from the West Bank." The question of Terra Nullius comes into play as well as the fact that there was no Arab Palestinian Government as defined by the Montevideo Convention (1933).

And since you mention (illegal, invading, aggressor) opposing views, I would like to bring your attention to:

◈ (Para 3, A/PV.2268. 14 October 1974), agree to ANNEX III Protocol Concerning Civil Affairs • ARTICLE IV Special Provisions concerning Area "C" • which assigned Israel full civil and security control over Area “C".​

​

◈ Memorandum from the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs, 11 December 2012 wherein UN Legal Affair state (unequivocally) that: Prior to the adoption of 67/19, Palestine was treated as an entity for UN purposes. Palestine was not identified as a State or a Country nor could its authorities be identified as a government.​

Think about the potential implications of these two statements.

The rights of Palestine were established by the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres, which had Palestinian representative, but no Israeli representatives because Israel or any Jewish entity was never supposed to exist.

(COMMENT)

The Conference at San Remo (1920) did not involve the Palestinians and not did it make a pact or obligation to the Arab Palestinians. It was an agreement between members of the Supreme Council of the Allied Power. And the Council basically set the framework for the Mandate for Palestine.

The Treaty of Sevres was never ratified and thus never came into force. But if it had gone into force, the territorial issues would have been found in:

SECTION VII.
SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE.
ARTICLE 95​

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.​

Again, the Arab Palestinian is not the beneficiary of any promise or obligation. The Treaty was between the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic and the Allied Powers.

The point of Iron Shield is that the targets are ballistic, so have the simplest, slowest, and most predictable, 45 degree, parabolic trajectory. And even then, Iron Dome can only hit incoming that is pretty much directly aimed at the interceptors. Anything to the side gets through, and anything beyond the saturation threshold gets through. So it is useless for generalized situations.

But with "Jihad", I would agree there are multiple meanings and the rhetoric is pretty inflammatory, so hard to tell what any one user means.

(COMMENT)

I have no arguement here. Everyone knows the technology has inherent weaknesses.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[watchingfromafar]

The rights of Palestine were established by the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres, which had Palestinian representative, but no Israeli representatives because Israel or any Jewish entity was never supposed to exist.

Israel was a person, not a place

Genesis 32:28
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
No place called Israel ever existed until the Jews invaded Palestine, murdered all who resisted while building “settlements” over the rubble of Palestinian villages.
Those murderous activities of the past continue today, and their demise is foretold in biblical scripture as well.
The Israelis express no remorse, they are hell bent on fulfilling God’s prophecy and the Lord will not stand in their way, it is foretold---

Ezekiel 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
8 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
11 And he hath given it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer.
12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord God.
18 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.
22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort.
23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
24 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
26 Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering:
29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.
30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the Lord have spoken it.
Modern day Israelis ignore the above, believing they are above His rule.

The Israeli IDF sniper teams have murdered hundreds of Palestinian children
https://tinyurl.com/32yekhjk
Israelis destroy Palestinian homes and murder whoever is inside
https://tinyurl.com/47s4nm28
Israelis destroy Palestinian fishing boats cutting off needed food for its people
https://tinyurl.com/4a8zj84c

How can a moral person
knowing the above
look the other way?? ​

-

 

[Rigby5]

it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.

There is no Palestine side of the UN division.

The 1948, 1967, or any war, did not allow for Israel to occupy Jerusalem, the East Bank, or anything beyond the 1948 UN division.

The Arabs really fucked up, didn't they?.

Palestine was officially created in 1920 and accepted as official by the League of Nations.
The Arab did nothing wrong, but simply had no arms to defend themselves, because the British disarmed them.

 

[Rigby5]

RE: Israel, the 51st State of the USA & then maybe not (a repeat thread)
SUBTOPIC: Poor Perspective on Israel
⁜→ Rigby5, et al,

I think that we will have to agree on the disagreement.


(COMMENT)

I cannot find any delinquent or defaulted outstanding "loans" relative to the Air Defense Systems for Israel. It is such a very some aspect of the Qualitative Military Edge (QME).

The US is into deficit spending. We have to borrow the money from somewhere. Those interest payments are quite available in open source material. And that is a big part of the Fiscal and Monetary Risk Managemnt Assessment. When the debt is purchased, the foreign source generally knows what it is for and generally relays on the Accounts Payable to add in the Revenue to their General Fund (pressumablely for their Annual Budget forecast). But that is probably more then you wanted to know. As you can see, there is still funding available under "Loan Guarantees."

View attachment 568787
View attachment 568789​

Ref: Congressional Research Service Report (RL33222)
U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel. Updated November 16, 2020.
by JimZanotti. with Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs


(COMMENT)

This idea that there is "money laundering" to shield it from Congressional Oversight is the stuff that conspiracies are made from. (The guys in the aluminum foil hats.). Sure, there is intelligence, security, and emergency (as well as diplomatic contingency funding) that is maintained on a separate ledger, but that is not laundering and it is reported in one fashion or another under congressional oversight. Just as any Class A Finance Officer.


(COMMENT)

Yeh, another fairy tale.


(COMMENT)

Actually, the 1967 (Six-Day War) Conflict was actually a continuation of the 1948 War For Independence. The 1949 Armistice Agreement (using your example) (◈ S/1302/Rev.1 3 April 1949 ARMISTICE AGREEMENT BETWEEN JORDAN AND ISRAEL 3 April 1949, at Rhodes) Article XII(2) " shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved." The "peaceful settlement was finally made in 1994 (◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) which covered the entirety of the territory formerly under Jordanian Control. Article 3 - International Boundary of the Treaty sets the conditions and borders. Most people don't bother to read the fine print, but Annex Ia(2) sets the boundary back to the pre-May 1948 lines.

THEN, you have to take into the 1988 Abandonment of the territories west of the Jordan River, which by default, put it in the hands of the Israeli Defense Force. The Jordanians call it the "Disengagement from the West Bank." The question of Terra Nullius comes into play as well as the fact that there was no Arab Palestinian Government as defined by the Montevideo Convention (1933).

And since you mention (illegal, invading, aggressor) opposing views, I would like to bring your attention to:

◈ (Para 3, A/PV.2268. 14 October 1974), agree to ANNEX III Protocol Concerning Civil Affairs • ARTICLE IV Special Provisions concerning Area "C" • which assigned Israel full civil and security control over Area “C".​

​

◈ Memorandum from the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs, 11 December 2012 wherein UN Legal Affair state (unequivocally) that: Prior to the adoption of 67/19, Palestine was treated as an entity for UN purposes. Palestine was not identified as a State or a Country nor could its authorities be identified as a government.​

Think about the potential implications of these two statements.


(COMMENT)

The Conference at San Remo (1920) did not involve the Palestinians and not did it make a pact or obligation to the Arab Palestinians. It was an agreement between members of the Supreme Council of the Allied Power. And the Council basically set the framework for the Mandate for Palestine.

The Treaty of Sevres was never ratified and thus never came into force. But if it had gone into force, the territorial issues would have been found in:

SECTION VII.​

SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE.​

ARTICLE 95​

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.​

Again, the Arab Palestinian is not the beneficiary of any promise or obligation. The Treaty was between the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic and the Allied Powers.


(COMMENT)

I have no arguement here. Everyone knows the technology has inherent weaknesses.

Most Respectfully,
R

Liar.

The whole point of the British Mandate for Palestine mentioned in the Treaty of San Remo and the Treaty of Sevres was to reward the portion of the Allied forces known as the Palestinians, for their help defeating the Ottoman Empire and forcing them from Palestine.
Palestine existed from that moment on, as soon as the British Mandate for Palestine was created.

As for Israel being given laundered funds, that is identical to how Reagan illegally funded the Contras in Nicaragua. To cliam the US miltary is not illegal funding Israel is a lie.

It is also a lie to claim that the invasion of Jerusalem in 1967 was not illegal.
Israel had agreed to the 1948 UN partition, and any use of force after that is a clear war crime.
And the 1967 was can not at all be called defensive, since it started by the Israeli sneak attack that destroyed the entire Egyptian air force.

Everything you wrote was a total lie.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Palestine was officially created in 1920 and accepted as official by the League of Nations.

Sweet!
Who were their elected leaders?
What was the conversion rate of their currency?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The whole point of the British Mandate for Palestine mentioned in the Treaty of San Remo and the Treaty of Sevres was to reward the portion of the Allied forces known as the Palestinians, for their help defeating the Ottoman Empire and forcing them from Palestine.

Excellent!
Post the parts of both Treaties that said that..........

 

[watchingfromafar]

As for international law, it is totally illegal for Israel to be militarily occupying any of the Palestine side of the UN division of 1948.

The Zionists don't care, period.

 

[Flash]

Israel has been a welfare state of the US ever since LBJ decided to throw the crew members of the USS Liberty under the bus so as to not piss off the IAPAC.

Kinda like Puerto Rico.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Zionists don't care, period.

No one cares about his fantasy.

 

[USAF 2023]

The Zionists don't care, period.

Too bad Egypt, Jordan and Syria didn’t care about “ International Law “ in 67 Neither did the UN it was the UN “ Peacekeepers “ who left the Straits of Tiran