Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Hossfly]

My belief is that Zionists think they have a right to make a state in Palestine because their god promised it to them millennia ago and because Jews had their kingdom there in Roman times.

I would challenge you to think about this in a different way. Yes, there are some extremely religious Jews who believe in some sort of G-d-given right to the land, but even that is arguable for reasons of complex Jewish theology that I won't bother to get into here. But for most Jewish people, and certainly for most Israelis, the primary reason for wanting a State is not based on religion or even on ancient history (although that certainly plays a role). It is based on the desire for a national self-determination, the same as the Kurdish people, the Catalan people, the Scots, the Tibetans, the Cypriots, the Serbs, the Croats, the French, the Spanish, the Americans. It is no different, except in one way. And that is the need for safety and security. The Jewish people, quite unique in the world, need a place to be safe. It is also based on the right of return to an ancestral homeland.

You say that most Jewish people want a state of their own is because they desire (i) "national self-determination". They also want (ii) "safety and security". You also claim that the Jewish people are (iii) "unique", And you assert a (iv) "right of return" to their ancestral homeland.
i) Jews are citizens of very many countries and so their nations have a claim on their aspiration for the self determination of these nations. Do you really want Polish Jews do not identify with the culture of Poland? Are Scottish Jews not really Scottish? Do you realize what message this gives to countries where Jews a citizens? Why would any Germans accept Jewish politicians, judges, teachers, and so forth, if their loyalty is to another nation? So be it.
ii) Are Jews in Israel safer and more secure than Jews in the USA? Seriously? If having a Jewish state in the middle of Arab Muslim countries while occupying Palestine and dealing with Arab native people with brutality is their idea of "safety and security then I would disagree.
iii) The Jews are no more unique than Catholics in Northern Ireland, Armenians in Turkey, or Roma in Spain. They have no claim on uniqueness than Basques in Spain and France or the Apache nation in the USA.
iv) The Holy Land is the mother of three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. No group has a claim on having an exclusive right to live there.

I would disagree with you that Jews and Palestinians want the same thing.

How so? Palestinians want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Jewish people want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Palestinian people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Jewish people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Palestinian people want an end to oppression, equality and dignity. The Jewish people want the same.

So how are they different?

Palestinians do not claim a right to the land based on ancient history. Their homeland is where they were born and their claim is therefore stronger than Russian immigrants.

I have never demonized Jews ...

"Demonize" is a catch-all word to describe dialogue which is critical of the Jewish people or which denies to the Jewish people things which would normally not be denied to others. Saying "Jews stole land" is not a criticism of Israel and her government -- it is demonizing the Jewish people.

Please, learn the distinction between Zionists and Jews.

the English promised a home for Jews in some place other than England and since they had the mandate over Palestine they offered it to the Jews, primarily Europeans from central and Eastern Europe who had survived the Final Solution.

Well, in fact, the land was promised to the Jewish people in 1917 -- before there was a Final Solution. So, your claim is patently false. And the British did not offer the land to the Jews. The British offered to assist in facilitating the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The difference is the agency of the Jewish people.

You are correct; the English wanted the Jews out of Europe before the Final Solution. But antisemitism and the Jewish Question was current in the beginning of the last century and even before that. The Zionists had their eye on Palestine which was in the hands of the English so it was a win-win when the English got the Jews out of Europe and let them have a "home" (not state) in Palestine. After the Final Solution, the destruction of the European Jews made a "home" for survivors seem sensible and it is no coincidence that Israel became a state in 1948 not 1928. The impact of the Final Solution should be noted.

The problem was that Muslim Arabs with smaller numbers of other groups such as Christians, Jews, and Druze, were already there and had been so for centuries.

No, the problem is not the presence of Muslim Arabs. There is plenty of room for both. Just look how many millions of people live in Israel and "Palestine" and Gaza today! Compared to the barely half million in 1900. Look how many Arab Muslims live in Israel. The problem is not the presence of either ethnic group.

It becomes a problem when the Zionists wanted a Jewish state rather than sharing the land with the native inhabitants. The influx of European Jews after the Final Solution inspired with the Zionist vision of a Jewish state was a huge problem. The history of Palestine could have been different.

So, Zionists wanted a Jewish state (not a mere home among Arabs)

The Jewish people wanted a Jewish State, not a mere home among Arabs. The Arab people wanted a Palestinian State, not a mere home among Jews. Seems fair, don't you think?

No; the Palestinian Arabs did not want to be dispossessed and displaced.

and Arabs did not want to be displaced and dispossessed

It was never the intent to displace or dispossess the Arab people. (As is evident by the high percentage of Arab people living in Israel). Any displacement or dispossession which occurred is a DIRECT result of Arab aggression against Jews.

You are ill-informed on the creation of the Jewish state.

So, the point of going into all this with you is to point out that demonizing of the Jewish people moves us backwards rather than forward. It is not valid criticism of Israel to make broad sweeping statements about stolen land and apartheid and occupation and oppression and the lack of rights of the Jewish people.

What discussion should be about are concrete, practical plans to move forward towards a solution to the problem.

Forgive me but the occupation of Palestinian land by the Israelis is the root cause of the current problem today.

Outstanding.... Informative,Accurate Post, Eloy

​

 

[theliq]

My belief is that Zionists think they have a right to make a state in Palestine because their god promised it to them millennia ago and because Jews had their kingdom there in Roman times.

I would challenge you to think about this in a different way. Yes, there are some extremely religious Jews who believe in some sort of G-d-given right to the land, but even that is arguable for reasons of complex Jewish theology that I won't bother to get into here. But for most Jewish people, and certainly for most Israelis, the primary reason for wanting a State is not based on religion or even on ancient history (although that certainly plays a role). It is based on the desire for a national self-determination, the same as the Kurdish people, the Catalan people, the Scots, the Tibetans, the Cypriots, the Serbs, the Croats, the French, the Spanish, the Americans. It is no different, except in one way. And that is the need for safety and security. The Jewish people, quite unique in the world, need a place to be safe. It is also based on the right of return to an ancestral homeland.

You say that most Jewish people want a state of their own is because they desire (i) "national self-determination". They also want (ii) "safety and security". You also claim that the Jewish people are (iii) "unique", And you assert a (iv) "right of return" to their ancestral homeland.
i) Jews are citizens of very many countries and so their nations have a claim on their aspiration for the self determination of these nations. Do you really want Polish Jews do not identify with the culture of Poland? Are Scottish Jews not really Scottish? Do you realize what message this gives to countries where Jews a citizens? Why would any Germans accept Jewish politicians, judges, teachers, and so forth, if their loyalty is to another nation? So be it.
ii) Are Jews in Israel safer and more secure than Jews in the USA? Seriously? If having a Jewish state in the middle of Arab Muslim countries while occupying Palestine and dealing with Arab native people with brutality is their idea of "safety and security then I would disagree.
iii) The Jews are no more unique than Catholics in Northern Ireland, Armenians in Turkey, or Roma in Spain. They have no claim on uniqueness than Basques in Spain and France or the Apache nation in the USA.
iv) The Holy Land is the mother of three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. No group has a claim on having an exclusive right to live there.

I would disagree with you that Jews and Palestinians want the same thing.

How so? Palestinians want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Jewish people want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Palestinian people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Jewish people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Palestinian people want an end to oppression, equality and dignity. The Jewish people want the same.

So how are they different?

Palestinians do not claim a right to the land based on ancient history. Their homeland is where they were born and their claim is therefore stronger than Russian immigrants.

I have never demonized Jews ...

"Demonize" is a catch-all word to describe dialogue which is critical of the Jewish people or which denies to the Jewish people things which would normally not be denied to others. Saying "Jews stole land" is not a criticism of Israel and her government -- it is demonizing the Jewish people.

Please, learn the distinction between Zionists and Jews.

the English promised a home for Jews in some place other than England and since they had the mandate over Palestine they offered it to the Jews, primarily Europeans from central and Eastern Europe who had survived the Final Solution.

Well, in fact, the land was promised to the Jewish people in 1917 -- before there was a Final Solution. So, your claim is patently false. And the British did not offer the land to the Jews. The British offered to assist in facilitating the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The difference is the agency of the Jewish people.

You are correct; the English wanted the Jews out of Europe before the Final Solution. But antisemitism and the Jewish Question was current in the beginning of the last century and even before that. The Zionists had their eye on Palestine which was in the hands of the English so it was a win-win when the English got the Jews out of Europe and let them have a "home" (not state) in Palestine. After the Final Solution, the destruction of the European Jews made a "home" for survivors seem sensible and it is no coincidence that Israel became a state in 1948 not 1928. The impact of the Final Solution should be noted.

The problem was that Muslim Arabs with smaller numbers of other groups such as Christians, Jews, and Druze, were already there and had been so for centuries.

No, the problem is not the presence of Muslim Arabs. There is plenty of room for both. Just look how many millions of people live in Israel and "Palestine" and Gaza today! Compared to the barely half million in 1900. Look how many Arab Muslims live in Israel. The problem is not the presence of either ethnic group.

It becomes a problem when the Zionists wanted a Jewish state rather than sharing the land with the native inhabitants. The influx of European Jews after the Final Solution inspired with the Zionist vision of a Jewish state was a huge problem. The history of Palestine could have been different.

So, Zionists wanted a Jewish state (not a mere home among Arabs)

The Jewish people wanted a Jewish State, not a mere home among Arabs. The Arab people wanted a Palestinian State, not a mere home among Jews. Seems fair, don't you think?

No; the Palestinian Arabs did not want to be dispossessed and displaced.

and Arabs did not want to be displaced and dispossessed

It was never the intent to displace or dispossess the Arab people. (As is evident by the high percentage of Arab people living in Israel). Any displacement or dispossession which occurred is a DIRECT result of Arab aggression against Jews.

You are ill-informed on the creation of the Jewish state.

So, the point of going into all this with you is to point out that demonizing of the Jewish people moves us backwards rather than forward. It is not valid criticism of Israel to make broad sweeping statements about stolen land and apartheid and occupation and oppression and the lack of rights of the Jewish people.

What discussion should be about are concrete, practical plans to move forward towards a solution to the problem.

Forgive me but the occupation of Palestinian land by the Israelis is the root cause of the current problem today.

Outstanding.... Informative,Accurate Post, Eloy

​

He's good Hoss.....Eloy makes you Zionnuts look Fcuking Stupid.........steve

 

[Phoenall]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

It depends on the time period. For transactions executed prior to British rule the most complete set of records are in Istanbul. The British National Archives hold records for the Mandate period, but I am not sure that the British are allowing access for fear of upsetting Israel

Turkey transferred their records to the Palestinians a few years ago and are being digitized from what I understand, and many claims have been made to recover the stolen homes and land in Israel but, of course, Israel isn't going to give back the land it stole.

"Turkey Transfers Ottoman Land Records to Palestinian Authority
read more: Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

So then, bottom line is no official Palestinian land deeds can be presented. Is that correct?

Official deeds/land records have been presented. The Israelis won't recognize them.

Niether does the UN as they are all dated after the land theft of 1949, why do you think this is ?

 

[theliq]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

It depends on the time period. For transactions executed prior to British rule the most complete set of records are in Istanbul. The British National Archives hold records for the Mandate period, but I am not sure that the British are allowing access for fear of upsetting Israel

Turkey transferred their records to the Palestinians a few years ago and are being digitized from what I understand, and many claims have been made to recover the stolen homes and land in Israel but, of course, Israel isn't going to give back the land it stole.

"Turkey Transfers Ottoman Land Records to Palestinian Authority
read more: Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

So then, bottom line is no official Palestinian land deeds can be presented. Is that correct?

Official deeds/land records have been presented. The Israelis won't recognize them.

Niether does the UN as they are all dated after the land theft of 1949, why do you think this is ?

URAJOKE

 

[Phoenall]

As for the exact calculation:

From the Survey of Palestine Vol. 2 Page 566


A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

View attachment 96697

And the previous page that shows the Jews owned most of the land is no longer used by you, why is this monte

 

[Phoenall]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

It depends on the time period. For transactions executed prior to British rule the most complete set of records are in Istanbul. The British National Archives hold records for the Mandate period, but I am not sure that the British are allowing access for fear of upsetting Israel

Turkey transferred their records to the Palestinians a few years ago and are being digitized from what I understand, and many claims have been made to recover the stolen homes and land in Israel but, of course, Israel isn't going to give back the land it stole.

"Turkey Transfers Ottoman Land Records to Palestinian Authority
read more: Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

So then, bottom line is no official Palestinian land deeds can be presented. Is that correct?

Official deeds/land records have been presented. The Israelis won't recognize them.

Niether does the UN as they are all dated after the land theft of 1949, why do you think this is ?

URAJOKE

So you dont believe the UN now when it says that the arab muslims stole the land from the Jews. Up until 1949 the land registry was ran by the British and that shows the land was Jewish. The ottomans had no land registry as such, just a two tier system with the land being owned outright or leased. The majority of the arab muslims leased the land as they could not afford to buy it

 

[Phoenall]

Just facts. What a hoot you are.

You ignore the same facts when they say you are a LIAR dont you, and this is happening far more often now as we search your links for the truth. THis is what happens when you manipulate links hoping to get away with LIES

 

[Phoenall]

So according to you as Native Americans WE demand all of North America Back because we first settled there........We according to you have the right to the Land and can kick out,murder etc., anyone there because......that is what the Jews did!!!!!!!!!!!!!Susha,....REALLY...steve

The First Nations peoples of the Americas ABSOLUTELY have the right to self-determination on their ancestral lands. Without doubt. But you can not unbreak the egg of the European invasion and colonization of the Americas.

No one has the "right" to ethnically cleanse a place. And certainly no one has a "right" to murder anyone, not even while justifying it by calling it "resistance".

The answer, in the Americas, and in Israel/Palestine is to give BOTH groups self-determination in parts of the territory. It is that simple.

Trouble is the Jews and Americans NEVER WILL....so that blows your theory out of the water

Well the evidence already says you are a LIAR as the palestinians already have self determination in parts of palestine. And you have yet to prove that Israel has stopped this from ever happening. I will leave you to find the relevant articles showing palestinians have free determination

 

[Phoenall]

YAWN

Zionism a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.


Just so you will understand what zionism means to all but the hate sites

And both were CRIMINALS......no hate just fact.....I AM THE MAGNIFICENT

Full of hatred and lies as you make a claim that has no backing from any source other than the hate sites



Zionism a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.


Just so you will understand what zionism means to all but the hate sites

Eloy and I are giving you the run around today and you are having a mental meltdown.....I suggest Hoss puts his DICK IN YOUR RIGHT EAR,HE MAY BE ABLE TO FCUK SOME SENSE INTO YOU BOY

What a self centred pompous ass you are. It is you having the mental breakdown as you cant stand the truth




Zionism a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.


Just so you will understand what zionism means to all but the hate sites

YAWN

Does the truth always bore you ?

 

[Phoenall]

Still waiting for your evidence to support your LIES that Zionists are terrorists. Not one piece of evidence as you know they all trace back to the hate sites you frequent.

How can Turks, pakistanis and afghani's be semitic ?

Only A Fool Would Lean Upon,Lean Upon His Own Misunderstandings....................Only theliq Brought The Truth,Brought The Truth,In Due Season

Plenty of sites to view ZIONIST TERRORISM...just type in Zionist Terrorism,if you have the desire because you can take your pick,buggered if I'm going to keep doing it for you,time and time again.


As for the Turkic(Not Turks from Turkey,you moron) Tribes and others from Central Asia who converted to be Jews(who invariably also become Zionists) Can NEVER BE SEMITIC,but they are Synthetic Jews.........Where in my prose did I mention Turks,Pakistanis and Afghans?????Methinks you are loopy

PS..unlike YOU...I DON'T DO HATE SITES

You make the claim then it is up to you to produce the evidence. The reason you dont is because all your evidence goes back to the hate sites,

YOU DO HATE SITES ALL THE TIME AS PROVEN BY YOUR WORDS LIFTED VERBATIM FROM THEM

O Pheo IF ONLY THAT WERE TRUE.....I TOLD YOU I DON'T DO HATE SITES,I JUST REACT TO FACTS AND THE TRUTH...I AM MY OWN MAN AS YOU KNOW,STEVE........Zionist TERRORISM IS BAD,BAD,BAD....BY THE WAY ANTI ZIONISM IS NOT ANTI SEMITISM...AS YOU KNOW...I WANT YOU TO SEE ME AS YOUR CONSCIENCE PHEO,BECAUSE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BECOME....I DON'T HATE YOU...I CARE FOR YOU,AN ENEMY(IN YOUR MIND) CAN BECOME YOUR GREATEST FRIEND..........steve

I have traced your very own words back to hate sites and posted the results on here. The words were verbatim as in no changes to those posted on the hate sites, making you a LIAR and a 3 time loser. You are nothing to me other than a loud mouth uneducated lying POS racist nazi that does not have the guts to do what he tells others to do. The world would be a better place if you and your ilk were euthanised so we did not have to put up with your hatred and mental faillings

Where Bigmouth

In many of your anti semitic/anti zionist posts that include cut and paste reports. Very simple to put the cut and paste into google to fing its source

 

[MJB12741]

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

There are practical considerations, of course, but I have always agreed that the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland.

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

Good question. It is because no surrounding Arab country will allow the Palestinians a right of return.

 

[montelatici]

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

There are practical considerations, of course, but I have always agreed that the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland.

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

Good question. It is because no surrounding Arab country will allow the Palestinians a right of return.

How can they return to a place their ancestors have never been. Palestinians are from Palestine, you haven't quite grasped that simple concept?

 

[Shusha]

i) Jews are citizens of very many countries and so their nations have a claim on their aspiration for the self determination of these nations. Do you really want Polish Jews do not identify with the culture of Poland? Are Scottish Jews not really Scottish? Do you realize what message this gives to countries where Jews a citizens? Why would any Germans accept Jewish politicians, judges, teachers, and so forth, if their loyalty is to another nation? So be it.

Wow. Well done. In a conversation about valid criticism of Israel vs. antisemitism, you bring up the old antisemitic canard of "dual loyalty" and follow it up with an allusion to pre-Holocaust Nazi pogroms. Well. Freaking. Done.

 

[Shusha]

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

The primary one would be the risk of violence, of course.

 

[montelatici]

Well, you can't have it both ways. A religion is a religion and a nationality is a nationality.

 

[Shusha]

Please, learn the distinction between Zionists and Jews.

Please, do tell. The "Zionists" are those who believe the Jewish people, just like ALL peoples, have the right to a national self-determination. You know, ALL peoples, like the Catalans, the Basques, the Tibetans, the First Nations peoples and the Palestinians. The Jews, I guess, are those who believe that the Jewish people do not have rights like other people do. Does that sound about right?

 

[P F Tinmore]

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

The primary one would be the risk of violence, of course.

From a bunch of farmers who have not attacked anyone for centuries?

 

[montelatici]

But, these other people are not asking a world power to expel native people in a place on another continent to solve their "Self-Determination" problem.

And, there is no Jewish "people". They are a genetically mixed group of many nationalities, ethnic groups and races that happen to have a common religion.

 

[MJB12741]

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

There are practical considerations, of course, but I have always agreed that the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland.

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

Good question. It is because no surrounding Arab country will allow the Palestinians a right of return.

How can they return to a place their ancestors have never been. Palestinians are from Palestine, you haven't quite grasped that simple concept?

HUH? The Jews are native Palestinians.

 

[Hollie]

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

There are practical considerations, of course, but I have always agreed that the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland.

These people are now refugees in Gaza. Do you have a good explanation why they cannot go back to their homes?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia

Good question. It is because no surrounding Arab country will allow the Palestinians a right of return.

How can they return to a place their ancestors have never been. Palestinians are from Palestine, you haven't quite grasped that simple concept?

Well actually, we know from official Ottoman records that the so-called "Pal'istanians" were largely Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese invaders / Iand grabbers.

Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority