Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Phoenall]

WRONG AGAIN you are manipulating to demonise the Jews when no such international law exists to this day. The arab muslims have been practising settler colonisation all over the world in places like the former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Yemen etc

when no such international law exists to this day.​

That is somewhat correct. I don't think settler colonialism, per se, is illegal. However, many of the processes involved in establishing settler colonialism is.

Cant be if the concept is still legal

What concept is legal?

The one you are trying to claim is against international law of course. If the processes involved are illegal then the concept is also illegal. This is like your nation of palistine that never existed until 1988, it is an illegal concept until the arab muslims declared independance in accordance with International laws

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

If you dont know why dont you look. Apart from the 1948 declaration was 6 months too late and would have made palestine a wholly islamonazi cess pit

 

[Phoenall]

WRONG AGAIN you are manipulating to demonise the Jews when no such international law exists to this day. The arab muslims have been practising settler colonisation all over the world in places like the former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Yemen etc

when no such international law exists to this day.​

That is somewhat correct. I don't think settler colonialism, per se, is illegal. However, many of the processes involved in establishing settler colonialism is.

Cant be if the concept is still legal

What concept is legal?

A legal vote by the member nations of the UN at the time before the Muslim countries took it over makes Israel legal. What makes all the Muslim countries legal?

Link?

That is what he is asking you for ?

 

[Phoenall]

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

Effective government control over a territory?

Try again.

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

Effective government control over a territory?

Try again.

Try crossing the line of demarcation from Islamic terrorist controlled territories where Israel exercises effective control.

Effective control describes occupation not sovereignty.

And occuation is 9/10ths of the law

 

[Phoenall]

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

Effective government control over a territory?

Try again.

Wait, are you arguing that the Arab Palestinians had a government and control over territory in 1948?

Or are you arguing that you don't need to have a government or a territory to declare independence?

A government is not required. A defined territory is necessary. Palestine is a territory defined by international borders.

Israel has never had a defined territory.

When did a nation of palestine get defined borders that were not described as the Mandate of palestine.


ONCE AGAIN LINK TO THE TREATY SIGNED BY THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MUSLIM REPRESENTATIVE ?

 

[RoccoR]

esthermoon, et al,

Well, there is a lot of anti-Israeli propaganda on this topic.

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

(COMMENT)

Like every other country, Israeli citizenship has its own requirements, as do each of the 22 members of the Arab League.

So, the the Ministry of Foreign Affairs explain the four ways to achieve nationality: Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

01 Jan 2010

Israel's Nationality Law relates to persons born in Israel or resident therein, as well as to those wishing to settle in the country, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political belief. Citizenship may be acquired by:

• Birth
• The Law of Return
• Residence
• Naturalization

As you can see,

I know it is confusing but originally the State of Israel was to be a "Jewish National Home" (as in the San Remo Convention and the Mandate for Palestine) or as described in the 1947 Resolution 181 (II), a "Jewish State." But it was also declared (simultaneously) to be a "democratic State in the Declaration of Independence, (Officially known as the THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL) May 14, 1948 Or as the state (in Part):

"DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL."
​

On such matters, it is always BEST to go to the Israelis to get an explanantion. Don't satisfy yourself on the basis of a anti-Semetic with a hidden agenda.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

Yes, that is true. We hear all the time that all Israeli citizens have equal rights. Except for some cultural racism that is true. (?)

However, there are two sets of rights. Citizen's rights (as above) and nationality rights. Nationality rights only apply to Jewish nationality. These rights do not apply to Arab (Palestinian) nationality. These include things like immigration, citizenship, land, marriage and others.

BTW, I used to teach school in Vietnam. I had many friends. Good people.

 

[Hollie]

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

Yes, that is true. We hear all the time that all Israeli citizens have equal rights. Except for some cultural racism that is true. (?)

However, there are two sets of rights. Citizen's rights (as above) and nationality rights. Nationality rights only apply to Jewish nationality. These rights do not apply to Arab (Palestinian) nationality. These include things like immigration, citizenship, land, marriage and others.

BTW, I used to teach school in Vietnam. I had many friends. Good people.

Perhaps you could give us a synopsis of the rights available to the non-islamics in your islamic paradises of Gaza and the West Bank. If you want to define apartheid, fascism and subjugation of minority ethnicities and religions we can take a look at anyone single example of islamist majority nations across the islamist Middle East.

Care to compare?

 

[P F Tinmore]

when no such international law exists to this day.​

That is somewhat correct. I don't think settler colonialism, per se, is illegal. However, many of the processes involved in establishing settler colonialism is.

Cant be if the concept is still legal

What concept is legal?

The one you are trying to claim is against international law of course. If the processes involved are illegal then the concept is also illegal. This is like your nation of palistine that never existed until 1988, it is an illegal concept until the arab muslims declared independance in accordance with International laws

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

If you dont know why dont you look. Apart from the 1948 declaration was 6 months too late and would have made palestine a wholly islamonazi cess pit

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.

You make no sense.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

Effective government control over a territory?

Try again.

Wait, are you arguing that the Arab Palestinians had a government and control over territory in 1948?

Or are you arguing that you don't need to have a government or a territory to declare independence?

A government is not required. A defined territory is necessary. Palestine is a territory defined by international borders.

Israel has never had a defined territory.

When did a nation of palestine get defined borders that were not described as the Mandate of palestine.


ONCE AGAIN LINK TO THE TREATY SIGNED BY THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MUSLIM REPRESENTATIVE ?

Mandates were trustees. They only administered other people's countries.

 

[montelatici]

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

Yes, that is true. We hear all the time that all Israeli citizens have equal rights. Except for some cultural racism that is true. (?)

However, there are two sets of rights. Citizen's rights (as above) and nationality rights. Nationality rights only apply to Jewish nationality. These rights do not apply to Arab (Palestinian) nationality. These include things like immigration, citizenship, land, marriage and others.

BTW, I used to teach school in Vietnam. I had many friends. Good people.

Perhaps you could give us a synopsis of the rights available to the non-islamics in your islamic paradises of Gaza and the West Bank. If you want to define apartheid, fascism and subjugation of minority ethnicities and religions we can take a look at anyone single example of islamist majority nations across the islamist Middle East.

Care to compare?

Since the West Bank is ruled by Israel under martial law, the treatment of the Christians by the Israelis is no different than the treatment of the Muslims.

As far as Gaza, Christians and Muslims alike are held in what can only be described as a large outdoor prison run by the Israelis. Non-Muslims would feel uncomfortable under the rule Islamist thugs like Hamas (no better than Zionist thugs) , however, the few Christians left in Gaza are able to practice their religion.

For example from 2 days ago Published November 06, 2016 fro Fox News no less:

"British cardinal pays rare visit to Gaza's Christians

"Christian leaders blame the shattered economy, conflict with Israel and the blockade for encouraging Christians to move out......"

British cardinal pays rare visit to Gaza's Christians

 

[Phoenall]

And then the original national home was partitioned so that palestine was not wholly either Jewish or muslim, with the muslims getting 78% called trans Jordan and the Jews 22% called the future Jewish national home. You have been shown the proof of this many times from your own links and still you deny it by giving your own interpretation on another persons words. They did not create the Jewish national home on the whole of palestine, nor did they create the arab muslim national home on the whole of palestine they gave each their own parts.

 

[Phoenall]

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

You are misinformed by the various mistranslations and interpretations of what is actually said or written. There is no Israeli nationality just as there is no arab nationality or Christian nationality it is all a play on words. But there is an Israeli identity in the form of citizenship, giving al Israeli citizens the same legal, moral, civil, political and spiritual rights

 

[Phoenall]

Effective government control over a territory?

Try again.

Wait, are you arguing that the Arab Palestinians had a government and control over territory in 1948?

Or are you arguing that you don't need to have a government or a territory to declare independence?

A government is not required. A defined territory is necessary. Palestine is a territory defined by international borders.

Israel has never had a defined territory.

When did a nation of palestine get defined borders that were not described as the Mandate of palestine.


ONCE AGAIN LINK TO THE TREATY SIGNED BY THE PALESTINIAN ARAB MUSLIM REPRESENTATIVE ?

Mandates were trustees. They only administered other people's countries.

Confused again by similar words that dont mean the same thing.

When did palestine become a trustee of a mandate then, or Syria and Mesopotamia then. They were Mandates or legal entities run by mandatories who were caretakers.


Still waiting for the link to these alleged international borders other than thosed of the mandate of palestine. That just so happened to lie alongside the mandate of Syria the nations of Egypt, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia

 

[Phoenall]

Cant be if the concept is still legal

What concept is legal?

The one you are trying to claim is against international law of course. If the processes involved are illegal then the concept is also illegal. This is like your nation of palistine that never existed until 1988, it is an illegal concept until the arab muslims declared independance in accordance with International laws

Interesting. What was the legal difference between the 1948 declaration and the 1988 declaration?

If you dont know why dont you look. Apart from the 1948 declaration was 6 months too late and would have made palestine a wholly islamonazi cess pit

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.

You make no sense.

Only to you as everyone else see's it as perfect sense. the 1948 declaration was made 6 months after another declaration had been submitted and accepted as true. So the arab league declaration was not acceptable as it broke the UN rules, UN charter and LoN rules. The arab muslims already had their home in Jordan so that is where they should be today

 

[Shusha]

OK, let's add some clarity about Israel. Or confusion depending on which side of the isle you are on.

If what the man in the video says is true well it's pretty shocking. I didn't know Israeli nationality doesn't exist.
So in Israel you have full political and civil rights only if you're Jew? Am I right?
I hope I misunderstood...

Don't worry, you do indeed misunderstand. Rocco explained it well.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

It makes absolute prefect sense. You just don't like the answer.

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.
You make no sense.

(COMMENT)

In September 1948 the All Palestine Government (APG) declared Independence over the entirety of the former Mandate of Palestine on the West side of the Jordan. But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1948.

The territory cannot be sovereign to --- two different governments.

APG was a unique government in that it had no territory.

The APG was dissolved by its creator; the Egyptians in 1959. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” The PLO declared independence (November 1988) over territory that had been abandon by the Jordanians in July 1988 --- and left in the hands of the Israelis.

Similarly, the Gaza Strip, formerly a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) under a Egyptian Military Governorship vacated the territory in 1967, leaving it in the hands of the Israelis.

Unbelievably, the Arab Palestinians made the same mistake a second time; being late again in Declaring Independence in November 1988.

It could have face a serious challenge, except for the fact that Israel simply did not want to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into the sovereignty of the nations. There were several reasons why the Israelis allowed the establishment of the Palestinian Declared State; least of all was that it was not economically feasible to incorporate a totally unproductive people into the Israeli society. And --- these two areas contained a unusually large number of security threats including the elements that attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and the Islamic Jihadist that attacked the Olympic Team in Munich. No one in the Arab World wanted to assimilate them, and Israeli did not either.

Most Respectfully.
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

It makes absolute prefect sense. You just don't like the answer.

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.
You make no sense.

(COMMENT)

In September 1948 the All Palestine Government (APG) declared Independence over the entirety of the former Mandate of Palestine on the West side of the Jordan. But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.

The territory cannot be sovereign to --- two different governments.

APG was a unique government in that it had no territory.

The APG was dissolved by its creator; the Egyptians in 1959. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” The PLO declared independence (November 1988) over territory that had been abandon by the Jordanians in July 1988 --- and left in the hands of the Israelis.

Similarly, the Gaza Strip, formerly a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) under a Egyptian Military Governorship vacated the territory in 1967, leaving it in the hands of the Israelis.

Unbelievably, the Arab Palestinians made the same mistake a second time; being late again in Declaring Independence in November 1988.

It could have face a serious challenge, except for the fact that Israel simply did not want to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into the sovereignty of the nations. There were several reasons way the Israelis allowed the establishment of the Palestinian Declared State; least of all was that it was not economically feasible to incorporate a totally unproductive people into the Israeli society. And --- these two areas contained a unusually large number of security threats including the elements that attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and the Islamic Jihadist that attacked the Olympic Team in Munich. No one in the Arab World wanted to assimilate them, and Israeli did not either.

Most Respectfully.
R

But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.​

OK, but what was Israel's defined territory in 1948. Do you have a map or some documented description? Where did Palestine's international borders encroach on Israel's territory?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, --- excellent question.

P F Tinmore, et al,

It makes absolute prefect sense. You just don't like the answer.

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.
You make no sense.

(COMMENT)

In September 1948 the All Palestine Government (APG) declared Independence over the entirety of the former Mandate of Palestine on the West side of the Jordan. But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.

The territory cannot be sovereign to --- two different governments.

APG was a unique government in that it had no territory.

The APG was dissolved by its creator; the Egyptians in 1959. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” The PLO declared independence (November 1988) over territory that had been abandon by the Jordanians in July 1988 --- and left in the hands of the Israelis.

Similarly, the Gaza Strip, formerly a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) under a Egyptian Military Governorship vacated the territory in 1967, leaving it in the hands of the Israelis.

Unbelievably, the Arab Palestinians made the same mistake a second time; being late again in Declaring Independence in November 1988.

It could have face a serious challenge, except for the fact that Israel simply did not want to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into the sovereignty of the nations. There were several reasons way the Israelis allowed the establishment of the Palestinian Declared State; least of all was that it was not economically feasible to incorporate a totally unproductive people into the Israeli society. And --- these two areas contained a unusually large number of security threats including the elements that attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and the Islamic Jihadist that attacked the Olympic Team in Munich. No one in the Arab World wanted to assimilate them, and Israeli did not either.

Most Respectfully.
R

But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.​

OK, but what was Israel's defined territory in 1948. Do you have a map or some documented description? Where did Palestine's international borders encroach on Israel's territory?

(COMMENT)

On May 14th, 1948, the boundaries (as agreed upon with the UNPC) was that stipulated in the Resolution 181 (II) and Annex A. After the pre-planned invasion by Arab League forces; effective control for Israel expanded. The Armistice Lines were not drawn until the early month of 1949. Israels control expanded from 55% to ≈77%. However, No group representing the Arab Palestinians as a whole existed. By 1979 and again in 1994, the situation evolved with treaties.

See one of my previous positing #3201.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, --- excellent question.

P F Tinmore, et al,

It makes absolute prefect sense. You just don't like the answer.

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.
You make no sense.

(COMMENT)

In September 1948 the All Palestine Government (APG) declared Independence over the entirety of the former Mandate of Palestine on the West side of the Jordan. But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.

The territory cannot be sovereign to --- two different governments.

APG was a unique government in that it had no territory.

The APG was dissolved by its creator; the Egyptians in 1959. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” The PLO declared independence (November 1988) over territory that had been abandon by the Jordanians in July 1988 --- and left in the hands of the Israelis.

Similarly, the Gaza Strip, formerly a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) under a Egyptian Military Governorship vacated the territory in 1967, leaving it in the hands of the Israelis.

Unbelievably, the Arab Palestinians made the same mistake a second time; being late again in Declaring Independence in November 1988.

It could have face a serious challenge, except for the fact that Israel simply did not want to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into the sovereignty of the nations. There were several reasons way the Israelis allowed the establishment of the Palestinian Declared State; least of all was that it was not economically feasible to incorporate a totally unproductive people into the Israeli society. And --- these two areas contained a unusually large number of security threats including the elements that attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and the Islamic Jihadist that attacked the Olympic Team in Munich. No one in the Arab World wanted to assimilate them, and Israeli did not either.

Most Respectfully.
R

But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.​

OK, but what was Israel's defined territory in 1948. Do you have a map or some documented description? Where did Palestine's international borders encroach on Israel's territory?

(COMMENT)

On May 14th, 1948, the boundaries (as agreed upon with the UNPC) was that stipulated in the Resolution 181 (II) and Annex A. After the pre-planned invasion by Arab League forces; effective control for Israel expanded. The Armistice Lines were not drawn until the early month of 1949. Israels control expanded from 55% to ≈77%. However, No group representing the Arab Palestinians as a whole existed. By 1979 and again in 1994, the situation evolved with treaties.

See one of my previous positing #3201.

Most Respectfully,
R

You keep forgetting that resolution 181 never happened.

Israels control expanded from 55% to ≈77%.​

Indeed, all taken by military force. And most of that before the 1948 war along with about 300,00 refugees. Israel blames that on the war but that is a lie.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, --- excellent question.

P F Tinmore, et al,

It makes absolute prefect sense. You just don't like the answer.

Why was 1948 too late and 1988 not.
You make no sense.

(COMMENT)

In September 1948 the All Palestine Government (APG) declared Independence over the entirety of the former Mandate of Palestine on the West side of the Jordan. But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.

The territory cannot be sovereign to --- two different governments.

APG was a unique government in that it had no territory.

The APG was dissolved by its creator; the Egyptians in 1959. The Arab Summit in 1974 recognized the PLO as the “sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” The PLO declared independence (November 1988) over territory that had been abandon by the Jordanians in July 1988 --- and left in the hands of the Israelis.

Similarly, the Gaza Strip, formerly a Non-Self-Governing Territory (NSGT) under a Egyptian Military Governorship vacated the territory in 1967, leaving it in the hands of the Israelis.

Unbelievably, the Arab Palestinians made the same mistake a second time; being late again in Declaring Independence in November 1988.

It could have face a serious challenge, except for the fact that Israel simply did not want to assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Strip into the sovereignty of the nations. There were several reasons way the Israelis allowed the establishment of the Palestinian Declared State; least of all was that it was not economically feasible to incorporate a totally unproductive people into the Israeli society. And --- these two areas contained a unusually large number of security threats including the elements that attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Kingdom and the Islamic Jihadist that attacked the Olympic Team in Munich. No one in the Arab World wanted to assimilate them, and Israeli did not either.

Most Respectfully.
R

But that encompassed the State of Israel declared in May 1988.​

OK, but what was Israel's defined territory in 1948. Do you have a map or some documented description? Where did Palestine's international borders encroach on Israel's territory?

(COMMENT)

On May 14th, 1948, the boundaries (as agreed upon with the UNPC) was that stipulated in the Resolution 181 (II) and Annex A. After the pre-planned invasion by Arab League forces; effective control for Israel expanded. The Armistice Lines were not drawn until the early month of 1949. Israels control expanded from 55% to ≈77%. However, No group representing the Arab Palestinians as a whole existed. By 1979 and again in 1994, the situation evolved with treaties.

See one of my previous positing #3201.

Most Respectfully,
R

You keep forgetting that resolution 181 never happened.

Israels control expanded from 55% to ≈77%.​

Indeed, all taken by military force. And most of that before the 1948 war along with about 300,00 refugees. Israel blames that on the war but that is a lie.

"Indeed, all taken by military force."

Indeed, taken as a defensive response to acts of war by Islamist armies.