Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[Meriweather]

Jesus BEGGED the Father for another way,

So what? Have you never begged God for something and yet He showed you another way?

 

[Meriweather]

I just see no merit in trying to claim that Mary was somehow spared the need to kneel in repentance and sorrow over sin,

Very well. You see no need. Have you considered perhaps God saw a need?

 

[hadit]

Well, why not inform God of this and all the other mistakes you seem to feel he made?

I don't think He made any mistakes. Mary was human, sinned like all of us did and required a savior. Again, like all of us do. There was no other way for man to be justified before God other than Jesus suffering. A "mistake" only enters the picture if you pretend Mary didn't need a savior (something she proclaimed she had). Again, you seem to gloss over what a savior really is when she said that.

 

[hadit]

So what? Have you never begged God for something and yet He showed you another way?

I am not God in the flesh. I believe that if there was any way other than the cross, Jesus would not have suffered it.

 

[hadit]

Very well. You see no need. Have you considered perhaps God saw a need?

I do believe God saw a need for her to kneel in sorrow and repentance for sin. Only if you claim she never sinned do you see no need for her to do so.

 

[Meriweather]

I say that because you are insisting that Mary remained sinless her entire life

I am insisting nothing. I am merely noting beliefs of early Christians. I guess I'm just the convenient one for you to blame today for these early Christian beliefs.

 

[Meriweather]

Mary was human, sinned like all of us did and required a savior.

That's why I keep pointing out the scripture where Mary declares/proclaims God her savior. Is God not your savior?

 

[hadit]

That's why I keep pointing out the scripture where Mary declares/proclaims God her savior. Is God not your savior?

Absolutely, because I NEED a savior. If Mary was sinless, she did not need a savior. Why would she? Yet she had one, that apparently, she did not need.

 

[hadit]

I am insisting nothing. I am merely noting beliefs of early Christians. I guess I'm just the convenient one for you to blame today for these early Christian beliefs.

Yet those beliefs did not find their way into Scripture. There were other beliefs that were not considered credible or necessary to be included in the Gospels. Some were included as being cast aside, as the belief that Gentiles have obey the Law.

 

[Meriweather]

Absolutely, because I NEED a savior. If Mary was sinless, she did not need a savior. Why would she? Yet she had one, that apparently, she did not need.

Oh. Are you saying Mary created herself and never was a child/creation of God? Before Adam and Eve sinned, did they need God? If they didn't, why did God bother with them before their sin?

 

[Meriweather]

Yet those beliefs did not find their way into Scripture. There were other beliefs that were not considered credible or necessary to be included in the Gospels. Some were included as being cast aside, as the belief that Gentiles have obey the Law.

I get that Protestants did away with early Christian traditions that were taking place before Biblical accounts were even written. Many believe they were right to do this. Genealogy is in my blood, and I value going back as far as possible. Others regard these traditions as unnecessary baggage mentioned in writings that did not become Canon and yet are still treasured in the Church.

Belief was that Gentiles only need obey Noachide Law, not even Mosaic Law, and certainly not the other six hundred Jewish laws/customs. All the same, we might all be surprised at how many Hebrew Laws we unknowingly follow despite this.

 

[hadit]

Oh. Are you saying Mary created herself and never was a child/creation of God?

Now who's putting words in someone's mouth?

Before Adam and Eve sinned, did they need God? If they didn't, why did God bother with them before their sin?

They didn't need a savior then, because God was in fellowship with them and they were sinless. I mean, why are you even asking?

 

[Meriweather]

Now who's putting words in someone's mouth?

I did not put words in your mouth. Instead, I asked you a question, something I do when I can't know what another person is saying/thinking. I note you gave no answer.

They didn't need a savior then, because God was in fellowship with them and they were sinless. I mean, why are you even asking?

Do you believe God's grace is such that sin is always the lesser choice? Do you believe God can, from the very first instant of a person's life, bestow this saving grace upon whom He wills?

If early Christian belief/tradition is correct, if Luke correctly used a word that indicated this form of grace, the curious might well ask, "But why not me?" I don't know if you ever had an experience of God, but if you have, then you know at that moment, sin is the absolute farthest thing from your mind. Being filled with grace from the very beginning most likely has a similar affect. So think of human trait(s) we all have and value, trait(s) God wants us to have, but Mary may not have had these traits, at least not to the extent most humans have. Those traits would be free will and the hunger to know both good and evil. This is pure conjecture on my part, but it does consider cause and effect.

Some completely dismiss early Christian belief/tradition and then think up reasons it just can't be so. But then, isn't that why God gave us brains?

 

[hadit]

I did not put words in your mouth. Instead, I asked you a question, something I do when I can't know what another person is saying/thinking. I note you gave no answer.

I didn't answer because the question is ludicrous.

Do you believe God's grace is such that sin is always the lesser choice? Do you believe God can, from the very first instant of a person's life, bestow this saving grace upon whom He wills?

If early Christian belief/tradition is correct, if Luke correctly used a word that indicated this form of grace, the curious might well ask, "But why not me?" I don't know if you ever had an experience of God, but if you have, then you know at that moment, sin is the absolute farthest thing from your mind. Being filled with grace from the very beginning most likely has a similar affect. So think of human trait(s) we all have and value, trait(s) God wants us to have, but Mary may not have had these traits, at least not to the extent most humans have. Those traits would be free will and the hunger to know both good and evil. This is pure conjecture on my part, but it does consider cause and effect.

Some completely dismiss early Christian belief/tradition and then think up reasons it just can't be so. But then, isn't that why God gave us brains?

IOW, you're making my case, which is that there was another way for man to be reconciled with God without Jesus suffering the cross. All God had to do was remove free will from man and viola, no sin. Look, you're going way into the weeds here to justify this idea that Mary was sinless when Scripture doesn't make that case and if she was, she didn't need a savior (which she said she had), and Jesus wouldn't have needed to suffer on the cross, something He begged for. We can postulate these things until the cows come home, but there are consequences to all of them which make them very unlikely. The simplest answer is that she was just another person like the rest of us, chosen by God to fulfill a very painful and arduous task and blessed for her obedience.

 

[Meriweather]

IOW, you're making my case, which is that there was another way for man to be reconciled with God without Jesus suffering the cross. All God had to do was remove free will from man and viola, no sin. Look, you're going way into the weeds here to justify this idea that Mary was sinless when Scripture doesn't make that case and if she was, she didn't need a savior (which she said she had), and Jesus wouldn't have needed to suffer on the cross, something He begged for. We can postulate these things until the cows come home, but there are consequences to all of them which make them very unlikely. The simplest answer is that she was just another person like the rest of us, chosen by God to fulfill a very painful and arduous task and blessed for her obedience.

No, I am not making your case, I reject it. You seem to be saying if God could have done it another way, He either would have, or should have; that what He did for one He could/should do for all because what is best for one has to be best for all.

Look at it from the perspective of Moses and the Burning Bush. Why did this only happen to Moses? I want my burning bush! Peter, James, and John had the Transfiguration. Why them! I want the Transfiguration! I want my brother raised from the dead, my son cleansed of demons, and myself cleansed of leprosy! Others got this! I want it, too.

Could it be that you want what Mary had?

 

[luiza]

You Space Alien worshippers are going to be so disappointed when the bosses appear .
It’s a bit of a cruel test but I guess they will not be over bothered with your grief and self harm incidents

 

[hadit]

No, I am not making your case, I reject it. You seem to be saying if God could have done it another way, He either would have, or should have; that what He did for one He could/should do for all because what is best for one has to be best for all.

Look at it from the perspective of Moses and the Burning Bush. Why did this only happen to Moses? I want my burning bush! Peter, James, and John had the Transfiguration. Why them! I want the Transfiguration! I want my brother raised from the dead, my son cleansed of demons, and myself cleansed of leprosy! Others got this! I want it, too.

Could it be that you want what Mary had?

No, that was her walk, I have mine.

I just do not believe that Jesus would have suffered the cross if there was any way He didn't have to, and if Mary was perfectly sinless her entire life, she proves there was another way that man could be reconciled with God that did not require Him to. I just don't buy it that she was. It is not a denigration for her to have been human just like us.

 

[Meriweather]

No, that was her walk, I have mine.

I just do not believe that Jesus would have suffered the cross if there was any way He didn't have to, and if Mary was perfectly sinless her entire life, she proves there was another way that man could be reconciled with God that did not require Him to. I just don't buy it that she was. It is not a denigration for her to have been human just like us.

I see. God can work miracles...but not when it comes to Mary. She is off limits, despite the angel's testimony? What other miracles do you reject? The Burning Bush. Manna in the desert. People being cured of snake bites. Lepers being cured. Demons being cast out. Additional wine at the wedding feast in Cana. The feeding of five thousand. Perhaps even the Resurrection?

 

[Arlette]

Mary was a rape survivor

 

[Meriweather]

Mary was a rape survivor

Another entering a discussion on the probability of miracles not being possible--the impossibility of Mary's child being conceived by the Holy Spirit...