Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[Arlette]

Another entering a discussion on the probability of miracles not being possible--the impossibility of Mary's child being conceived by the Holy Spirit...

Do you entertain the possibility?

 

[luiza]

Cult Christians in a terrible mess .

The Mum was humped by a Space Alien Enforcer( mistranslation to Archangel ) and Maggy was just a mum to three kids after marrying her Essene Monk after J rescued him from the cross .

Let’s have it as it actually was rather than the silly stories assembled for Sheeple consumption

 

[Meriweather]

Do you entertain the possibility?

I believe the reality. When a miracle occurs in one's own life, it is not easy to dismiss the miracle in the life of another. It points the way to great possibilities and spellbinding explorations.

A question I often ask myself...Today, will I be a pioneer or a settler? Explore or accept the safe conclusion.

 

[hadit]

I see. God can work miracles...but not when it comes to Mary. She is off limits, despite the angel's testimony? What other miracles do you reject? The Burning Bush. Manna in the desert. People being cured of snake bites. Lepers being cured. Demons being cast out. Additional wine at the wedding feast in Cana. The feeding of five thousand. Perhaps even the Resurrection?

You're calling God taking away a person's free will a miracle?

 

[hadit]

Another entering a discussion on the probability of miracles not being possible--the impossibility of Mary's child being conceived by the Holy Spirit...

They are trolls. Ignore them as they have nothing to add to the discussion.

 

[Meriweather]

Let’s have it as it actually was

Some can't grasp it as it actually was, and so it slips away. The spiritual is lost and what remains is the physical, only half the possibilities await. Your "sheeple" are actually those who settle for less, half of who they can be.

 

[Meriweather]

You're calling God taking away a person's free will a miracle?

No.

 

[hadit]

No.

God did not take away Mary's free will. She proclaimed God as her savior, something she would not have needed if she was truly sinless her entire life. If she was, she could stand justified before God on her own efforts, proving that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was unnecessary. These are ramifications and consequences that cannot be easily cast aside.

So what miracle am I denying?

 

[Meriweather]

They are trolls. Ignore them as they have nothing to add to the discussion.

Or...they are open to a better understanding of why I believe as I do and hope that I can also be open to better understanding why they believe as they do. God meets us where we are, and we are capable of meeting others where they are. A divine spark dwells within all.

 

[Arlette]

I believe the reality. When a miracle occurs in one's own life, it is not easy to dismiss the miracle in the life of another. It points the way to great possibilities and spellbinding explorations.

A question I often ask myself...Today, will I be a pioneer or a settler? Explore or accept the safe conclusion.

What miracle has occurred in your life?

 

[Meriweather]

God did not take away Mary's free will. She proclaimed God as her savior, something she would not have needed if she was truly sinless her entire life. If she was, she could stand justified before God on her own efforts, proving that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was unnecessary. These are ramifications and consequences that cannot be easily cast aside.

So what miracle am I denying?

You are denying the miracle of the Immaculate Conception, that Mary was born without that propensity to sin. Consider the part of my post that pertains to the very human inclination to have knowledge of both good and evil. Most of us have no wish to have knowledge of murder, but Cain was certainly open to it.

It goes back to our differences in how we see grace. You see yourself standing before God, full of grace, even after you just committed a sin because that sin is already forgiven and God has apparently turned a blind eye to it.

I see being full of grace is what prevents us from ever committing--or even wanting to commit a sin--in the first place.

From here we go back to the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve wanted to know/chose to know both good and evil/sin. I tell you, it is impossible to commit a sin when one is filled with God's grace and in God's presence just as it is impossible to stand in the dark when light is present. Your thought that if God could fill Mary with grace and thus make her sinless, why not do it to all? My response is that mankind (via Adam and Eve) wanted the knowledge of both good and evil. God basically said, "Fine, but I'm still going to redeem mankind and direct everyone in the way of salvation."

Do not think I believe God took away Mary's free will. That is not in doubt. I'm simply noting God's grace is extremely powerful--it is not just forgiving, it is so filled with light, there is no inclination to sin--not in the presence of God. Without that inclination for sin (Original Sin), lost is the knowledge of evil/sin. What is not lost is knowledge of pain and sorrow and a hard row to hoe. In accepting God's will she be overshadowed with the Holy Spirit and conceive--she, a virgin, was not going to have it easy. She almost lost Joseph in the process.

So, in conclusion: Mary recognized that it was grace from God that directed her away from all sin, and that God's love of her had her returning that love with all her heart. She was his handmaiden, and a very willing one at that. This wasn't her own doing. She did not fill herself with grace, and she did not create God's love. She was bathed in both, and she accepted the life that grace and that love would bring--and especially the pain it would bring.

 

[Meriweather]

What miracle has occurred in your life?

The one I am thinking of is I was in prayer and was asked to give a message to someone I didn't know, had never even met. Not being anything like Mary, I responded, "Tell her yourself. If you can tell me, you can certainly tell her." God is even more stubborn that I am (and yes, I even asked for a physical sign that I should do this). The sign was given, I gave the lady a simple message, and her whole face lit up. It turned out she had been at such a loss, in such a dither trying to come to a decision. We never saw each other again. (I was moving to another state.)

 

[hadit]

You are denying the miracle of the Immaculate Conception, that Mary was born without that propensity to sin. Consider the part of my post that pertains to the very human inclination to have knowledge of both good and evil. Most of us have no wish to have knowledge of murder, but Cain was certainly open to it.

My issue with this is that we are forced to come up with possibilities and ideas to justify a belief instead of the belief corresponding to what is known. The Bible, to which we conform our beliefs, does not specify that Mary was sinless her entire life, which means we have to craft these theories that she was born sinless and superior to Adam and Eve, not even with the curiosity about or inclination to sin at all. That would put her in a superior position to even Jesus, would it not, since He WAS open to being tempted and WAS capable of sinning. If He was not, why would Satan bother to even tempt Him and why was his sinlessness such a big deal? It is a testament to His character that He withstood Satan's best attempts at temptation. Are you saying that Satan would not even bother to tempt Mary at all since she was immune to sin?

It goes back to our differences in how we see grace. You see yourself standing before God, full of grace, even after you just committed a sin because that sin is already forgiven and God has apparently turned a blind eye to it.

That's not what I said at all. I said standing before God, all sins forgiven, however you want to say that happened. Either God's grace and mercy was extended to you because you are covered by the blood of Christ, or you spent two lifetimes in purgatory perfecting yourself (something we cannot do on our own). Do you not believe we will ever be in that condition? I believe it because I do not believe God will allow us into His presence with unforgiven sin, so this is the situation. We're standing before God, completely forgiven. Are we not just as full of grace as Mary was, even though we have sin that is now forgiven?

I see being full of grace is what prevents us from ever committing--or even wanting to commit a sin--in the first place.

From here we go back to the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve wanted to know/chose to know both good and evil/sin. I tell you, it is impossible to commit a sin when one is filled with God's grace and in God's presence just as it is impossible to stand in the dark when light is present. Your thought that if God could fill Mary with grace and thus make her sinless, why not do it to all? My response is that mankind (via Adam and Eve) wanted the knowledge of both good and evil. God basically said, "Fine, but I'm still going to redeem mankind and direct everyone in the way of salvation."

On the one hand, you say that it is impossible to sin "when one is filled with God's grace and in God's presence", while on the other you say Adam and Eve were created with the inclination to sin even though they literally walked with God in the Garden.

Do not think I believe God took away Mary's free will. That is not in doubt.

You say that, but then at the same time say that she was prevented from sinning.

I'm simply noting God's grace is extremely powerful--it is not just forgiving, it is so filled with light, there is no inclination to sin--not in the presence of God. Without that inclination for sin (Original Sin), lost is the knowledge of evil/sin. What is not lost is knowledge of pain and sorrow and a hard row to hoe. In accepting God's will she be overshadowed with the Holy Spirit and conceive--she, a virgin, was not going to have it easy. She almost lost Joseph in the process.

So, in conclusion: Mary recognized that it was grace from God that directed her away from all sin, and that God's love of her had her returning that love with all her heart. She was his handmaiden, and a very willing one at that. This wasn't her own doing. She did not fill herself with grace, and she did not create God's love. She was bathed in both, and she accepted the life that grace and that love would bring--and especially the pain it would bring.

We agree that Mary was extraordinary. We do not agree on her being perfect. I don't believe it was necessary for her to be so.

 

[Meriweather]

My issue with this is that we are forced to come up with possibilities and ideas to justify a belief instead of the belief corresponding to what is known. The Bible, to which we conform our beliefs, does not specify that Mary was sinless her entire life, which means we have to craft these theories that she was born sinless and superior to Adam and Eve, not even with the curiosity about or inclination to sin at all. That would put her in a superior position to even Jesus, would it not, since He WAS open to being tempted and WAS capable of sinning. If He was not, why would Satan bother to even tempt Him and why was his sinlessness such a big deal? It is a testament to His character that He withstood Satan's best attempts at temptation. Are you saying that Satan would not even bother to tempt Mary at all since she was immune to sin?

I am saying that the angel states that Mary was full of grace, with Luke using the term that this happened in the past, not when the angel declared it. I am saying early Christians say that Mary remained a virgin and was without sin.

So...I'm not the one changing a thing. You are dismissing how Luke described Mary's state of grace and you are dismissing the beliefs/traditions of the early Church. Ironically, you are the one insisting on changing what is known both in the Bible and in early Church traditions. Then you start with your own conclusions and argue for them because you disagree with Luke and the early Christians.

This does not put Mary in a "superior position" of Jesus. Mary was/is fully human. One nature. Jesus has two natures, those of being fully human and fully divine. Jesus is the successful Adam (a man) and Mary is the successful Eve (mother/woman).

If Mary was tempted, this is not noted either in the Bible or in early Christian traditions. It is interesting that in Revelation John notes that after giving birth, a special place had been prepared for the woman. Doesn't this indicate Mary may have had divine protection and perhaps that was also in effect before she gave birth? (Mary was thought to have been in the shelter of the Temple most of her childhood.)

 

[ding]

My issue with this is that we are forced to come up with possibilities and ideas to justify a belief instead of the belief corresponding to what is known.

Don't you believe the early Christians would have a better understanding than you on this subject?

And why do you think the Bible addresses everything under the sun? It doesn't. According to your logic you can't believe God created the universe because the Bible doesn't explicitly state God created the universe. But we know God did based upon what we know of the universe and logic. It would be illogical that the universe existed independently from God.

Same goes for Mary. It would be illogical for the vessel that contained God to be impure.

 

[Meriweather]

That's not what I said at all. I said standing before God, all sins forgiven, however you want to say that happened. Either God's grace and mercy was extended to you because you are covered by the blood of Christ, or you spent two lifetimes in purgatory perfecting yourself (something we cannot do on our own). Do you not believe we will ever be in that condition? I believe it because I do not believe God will allow us into His presence with unforgiven sin, so this is the situation. We're standing before God, completely forgiven. Are we not just as full of grace as Mary was, even though we have sin that is now forgiven?

I am not speaking of unforgiven sin. Sins are forgiven. Where I am differing with you is what is intended by 'full of grace'. For you it means standing before God with your sins forgiven. I am saying that being full of God's grace removes all desire to sin in the first place.

The purpose of Christ's sacrifice is not to cover up sin. It is to open the way of salvation where one is sanctified/purified/redeemed (saved) from our desire to sin. Our desire is for God alone.

Catholic belief is that we follow the Way of Christ, that we wish to conform our own will to what God wills. Today, does your will form fully to that of God to the extent you do not sin? If someone who has not dies this instant, are you imagining that God will zap your soul into doing His will? Or, do you imagine you will go on doing your own will in heaven because being "covered" you can do exactly as you please because God only sees the blood of Christ? Do you not believe that a human soul can be completely sanctified/purified, that God must cover it all up?

You see grace as sins being forgiven. I see grace as not sinning to begin with. I see sanctified/purification as the soul being pure. You seem to see it as the soul and its sins being "covered" up. So, no, I don't see myself as full of grace. Not yet.

 

[Meriweather]

On the one hand, you say that it is impossible to sin "when one is filled with God's grace and in God's presence", while on the other you say Adam and Eve were created with the inclination to sin even though they literally walked with God in the Garden.

I said this is what Adam and Eve, giving their descendants this inclination.

 

[Meriweather]

You say that, but then at the same time say that she was prevented from sinning.

I did not say she was prevented from sinning. I said being filled with God's grace overcame that inclination to sin. Since you believe being filled with grace means your sins are forgiven, you can't think it terms of not sinning at all. If you are ever to experience God's great love for a moment in this life, you will understand in that moment there is simply no room for sin. Being filled with God's grace means there is no room for sin.

 

[Meriweather]

We agree that Mary was extraordinary. We do not agree on her being perfect. I don't believe it was necessary for her to be so.

I never said it was necessary. I said, according to Luke and early Church traditions, it was what God did. I don't recall either saying it was "necessary".

 

[Arlette]

The one I am thinking of is I was in prayer and was asked to give a message to someone I didn't know, had never even met. Not being anything like Mary, I responded, "Tell her yourself. If you can tell me, you can certainly tell her." God is even more stubborn that I am (and yes, I even asked for a physical sign that I should do this). The sign was given, I gave the lady a simple message, and her whole face lit up. It turned out she had been at such a loss, in such a dither trying to come to a decision. We never saw each other again. (I was moving to another state.)

You take yourself too seriously