Methodist Church Considers HP Company Divestment

[RoccoR]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Certainly not a European born Zionist.

Oh now I get it. You see, you Zionists, you can't claim Moses was a Zionist for dragging his people through the desert for 40 years to a establish a Jewish homeland because the guy wasn't a European. Hey I have an idea. Lets say the European Theodore Herzl was the first Zionist, to help bail Monte out.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Certainly not a European born Zionist.

Oh now I get it. You see, you Zionists, you can't claim Moses was a Zionist for dragging his people through the desert for 40 years to a establish a Jewish homeland because the guy wasn't a European. Hey I have an idea. Lets say the European Theodore Herzl was the first Zionist, to help bail Monte out.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

 

[MJB12741]

For Americans, Israeli's & all other peace loving peoples, I feel it is our moral obligation to find incentives to offer these groups to just kill each other, until there are none. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Arab-Palestinian Terrorist Groups

 

[montelatici]

US government considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist until 2008

US government considered Nelson Mandela a terrorist until 2008 - NBC News

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

While popular support is very important from a grassroots level (the Islamic Resistance cannot exist in a vacuum), sometime a diverse allied affiliate base becomes the dominate diplomatic and political standpoint. Now these are opens source database connections that have or continue to support HAMAS. When I speak of Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) I'm not speaking of just one single type of Arab Palestinian. Just on the open source side of the house, the HAMAS extended Family associates and affiliates looks roughly like this.

​

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

(COMMENT)

You are probably very accurate in the opinion that there appears to be no interest in Peace Talks. Like any dispute on a segregationist issue, Humanitarian and economic problems persist --- with the Gaza Strip and HAMAS presenting a challenge. There is no question that at least part of the dilemma rest on the issue of closing the borders; perhaps part of this dilemma the anti-terrorist countermeasures and security confinement --- closure protocols enforced by Israel and Egypt. These two countries, the United States, and other international actors are extremely reluctant to take direct action toward opening Gaza’s borders fully because of legal, political, and strategic challenges to dealing with Hamas. This is a liability issue; where allied powers can be held liable for harm done by HAMAS that was harmful when it was placed on the market. If the international actors take direct action, and the HAMAS exploits the situation, them the US and the other international actors are liable (for actual threats carried out).

The diplomatic practice of persuading state (like Israel) to take some action by using force or threats:

Power-sharing arrangements among Palestinian factions that would allow for presidential and legislative elections and reunified PA rule over Gaza and parts of the West Bank are often proposed but remain unimplemented. Political support and economic assistance from Iran, Qatar, Turkey, and private Gulf state donors may bolster Hamas’s rule and, combined with other factors, exacerbate the Palestinian political divide. Nevertheless, measures by Egypt to counter militant groups operating in the Sinai Peninsula and to curb smuggling to Gaza, on top of existing Israeli practices.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Oh now I get it. You see, you Zionists, you can't claim Moses was a Zionist for dragging his people through the desert for 40 years to a establish a Jewish homeland because the guy wasn't a European. Hey I have an idea. Lets say the European Theodore Herzl was the first Zionist, to help bail Monte out.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

 

[montelatici]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

 

[RoccoR]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

But that is an analogy that is almost entirely wrong.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

(COMMENT)

Back in the day, it was within the recognized authority of the powers in place to make some decisions on that order. Most of them are commercial or economically based decisions.

You are talking like, in the past history of the real world, that countries that making these decisions to --- "carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa" --- were in the least bit worried about truth, justice, and morality of the plaintiffs? HELL NO!

In 1933 Major General Smedley Butler, USMC, (twice awarded the Medal of Honor), delivered a speech that is often referred to as the "War Is A Racket" speech. It gives us the important incite of the day:

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the self same few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

As I've said many times, you are (living today) a product of some of the most dramatic developments in humanity. And as much as we love the legacy of men like MG Butler and his heroic deeds in their day, we cannot compare their logic, loyalty and morality of that era to today. You simply cannot. You can dredge-up all the history and commentaries you want for that period. But at the end of the day, no matter how much you believe it is wrong and unfair, --- in the day "Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it." You can cite the concepts of "acquisition of territory by war" as often as you like. But from a time long before the Treaty of Westphalia, the men that controlled the world and the strength of nation shaped the politics and diplomacy; "if they are victorious. They just take it."

You can demonize the Allied Powers of the Great War; you can demonize and condemn the leaders and nations of the day. But like my father and his father before him, growing to admire and emulate these icons of history, the Allied Powers haven been given the rights and title to these lands of the old Ottoman Empire, who themselves invaded Mamluk-occupied Syria, victoriously take the territory and do as is in the Allied Powers best interest.

It is not at all about "throwing good money and bodies in after bad." It was about doing what was expected. I actually don't see what is so hard about understanding. Just ask yourself, why did the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) go to war so often. And why so many Muslim rulers, claiming to follow the example of the Prophet, engaged in wars to spread Islamic rule in the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, and Europe. Back in the day of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the concept was not so dissimilar to the proverb:

"To the victors goes the spoils"
William Marcey 1828
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

The facts are you have a genocidal Islamist terrorist organization called Hamas that was voted in to rule all the Palestinians but ended up ruling Gaza. Not interested in debating a mentally ill antisemite, what's there to debate with a liar and a bigot?

 

[Roudy]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

Actually you have your history wrong. The entire region was part of Ottoman Empire for over 700 years of which at no time did the Ottomans recognize a Palestine or Palestinian people. When the Ottomans joined the Germans in World War I, they were defeated and their empire collapsed. 99% of the conquered Ottoman territory in the ME was carved into Muslim states, except for Israel, which was designated to be the Jewish homeland on the religious and ancestral Jewish land.

American public stands staunchly shoulder to shoulder with Israel, and the two nations are inseparable. US Govt. officials and politicians are merely carrying out the will of the people.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

The facts are you have a genocidal Islamist terrorist organization called Hamas that was voted to rule all the Palestinians but ended up ruling Gaza. Not interested in debating a mentally ill antisemite, what's there to debate with a liar and a bigot?

You can't debate or discuss, all you're capable of is labeling and foam

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

The facts are you have a genocidal Islamist terrorist organization called Hamas that was voted to rule all the Palestinians but ended up ruling Gaza. Not interested in debating a mentally ill antisemite, what's there to debate with a liar and a bigot?

You can't debate or discuss, all you're capable of is labeling and foaming at the mouth. Rather monotonous and boring.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

But that is an analogy that is almost entirely wrong.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

(COMMENT)

Back in the day, it was within the recognized authority of the powers in place to make some decisions on that order. Most of them are commercial or economically based decisions.

You are talking like, in the past history of the real world, that countries that making these decisions to --- "carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa" --- were in the least bit worried about truth, justice, and morality of the plaintiffs? HELL NO!

In 1933 Major General Smedley Butler, USMC, (twice awarded the Medal of Honor), delivered a speech that is often referred to as the "War Is A Racket" speech. It gives us the important incite of the day:

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the self same few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

As I've said many times, you are (living today) a product of some of the most dramatic developments in humanity. And as much as we love the legacy of men like MG Butler and his heroic deeds in their day, we cannot compare their logic, loyalty and morality of that era to today. You simply cannot. You can dredge-up all the history and commentaries you want for that period. But at the end of the day, no matter how much you believe it is wrong and unfair, --- in the day "Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it." You can cite the concepts of "acquisition of territory by war" as often as you like. But from a time long before the Treaty of Westphalia, the men that controlled the world and the strength of nation shaped the politics and diplomacy; "if they are victorious. They just take it."

You can demonize the Allied Powers of the Great War; you can demonize and condemn the leaders and nations of the day. But like my father and his father before him, growing to admire and emulate these icons of history, the Allied Powers haven been given the rights and title to these lands of the old Ottoman Empire, who themselves invaded Mamluk-occupied Syria, victoriously take the territory and do as is in the Allied Powers best interest.

It is not at all about "throwing good money and bodies in after bad." It was about doing what was expected. I actually don't see what is so hard about understanding. Just ask yourself, why did the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) go to war so often. And why so many Muslim rulers, claiming to follow the example of the Prophet, engaged in wars to spread Islamic rule in the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, and Europe. Back in the day of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the concept was not so dissimilar to the proverb:

"To the victors goes the spoils"
William Marcey 1828
​

Most Respectfully,
R

And still, we're left with that legacy, and it's a mess, regardless of how one chooses to look back on the legacy. But if you're attempting to suggest our motives are of a more pure nature today for intervention than those we can pretzel ourselves into rationalizing in the past, not sure I agree. As for taking whatever you can? Our empire will not last forever either. And we won't be able to fund it forever either.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

Actually you have your history wrong. The entire region was part of Ottoman Empire for over 700 years of which at no time did the Ottomans recognize a Palestine or Palestinian people. When the Ottomans joined the Germans in World War I, they were defeated and their empire collapsed. 99% of the conquered Ottoman territory in the ME was carved into Muslim states, except for Israel, which was designated to be the Jewish homeland on the religious and ancestral Jewish land.

American public stands staunchly shoulder to shoulder with Israel, and the two nations are inseparable. US Govt. officials and politicians are merely carrying out the will of the people.

We are not going to be able to fund indefinitely an empire trying to manage the planet.

 

[Roudy]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

The facts are you have a genocidal Islamist terrorist organization called Hamas that was voted to rule all the Palestinians but ended up ruling Gaza. Not interested in debating a mentally ill antisemite, what's there to debate with a liar and a bigot?

You can't debate or discuss, all you're capable of is labeling and foam

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

The usual projecting dummy lashing out when he can't dispute the facts. You are too stupid to debate me, stop while you are ahead.

The facts are you have a genocidal Islamist terrorist organization called Hamas that was voted to rule all the Palestinians but ended up ruling Gaza. Not interested in debating a mentally ill antisemite, what's there to debate with a liar and a bigot?

You can't debate or discuss, all you're capable of is labeling and foaming at the mouth. Rather monotonous and boring.

Another one who can't handle hearing the truth about those he's rooting for. How about disputing some of the facts instead of making generalizations?

 

[Roudy]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

If Israel was some american group sponging off of US taxpayers you'd be soiling yourself with rage. Colonial powers tried to go in and carve up the middle east amongst themselves just like they did in Africa and there's been nothing but trouble ever since. We just keep throwing good money and bodies in after bad. Mostly because of zealots such as yourself. Ya just can't have a sensible conversation with fanatics.

Actually you have your history wrong. The entire region was part of Ottoman Empire for over 700 years of which at no time did the Ottomans recognize a Palestine or Palestinian people. When the Ottomans joined the Germans in World War I, they were defeated and their empire collapsed. 99% of the conquered Ottoman territory in the ME was carved into Muslim states, except for Israel, which was designated to be the Jewish homeland on the religious and ancestral Jewish land.

American public stands staunchly shoulder to shoulder with Israel, and the two nations are inseparable. US Govt. officials and politicians are merely carrying out the will of the people.

We are not going to be able to fund indefinitely an empire trying to manage the planet.

What empire is that? Have you been watching too many Star Wars movies? The only group that's trying to create an "empire" are Islamists who have their little cesspool Caliphates of violence, chauvanism, intolerance and barbarism ruled by medieval Neanderthals like ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, the Taliban, Boko Haram, etc.

Wake up and smell the Jihad. We can't even get on a plane without standing in long lines and fear of it getting blown up.

 

[MJB12741]

Fenton Lum, Roudy, MJB12741, montelatici, et al,

Yes, trying to stay up with the propaganda (both the recommended and non-recommended) is quite a task in itself.

When we talk about the goals and objectives of the Palestinians (destiny kind of stuff), we have to remember that, unlike most governments, there is no truly unified political or diplomatic voice that speaks for the Palestinian People. --- Although that was suppose to have been settled some 4 decades ago when the Resolution adopted at the Seventh Arab League Summit Conference on 28 October 1974, recognising the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.”

In most conversations, we just assume that we are either talking about HAMAS or the PLO (Khalid Mishaal vs Mahmoud Abbas - respectively); but there are a half-dozen or more factions out there that should not be counted-out just yet.. And in this,you have to be a bit careful. Even as something as simple as, what constitutes "Palestine," is argued even amongst Palestinians.

In the case of HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement), An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam.And I recommend that we are cautious in the use of the term "Islamist" (which is not the same as a Hostile Arab Palestinian, Islamic fighters, militants or insurgents, extremists or radicals or asymmetric opponents, --- who may or may not be Islamists.

Today, the Middle East is so filled with hostiles, radicals, and fundamentalist, that you almost need a scorecard to keep track of them.

Yup, and it's just coincidental the name of the land is ZION in the OT and that's what Jews called it thousands of years ago. Maybe they were Jews who didn't know they were actually Muslim Palestinians. You do know that Muslims claim that Jesus and Moses were Muslims!

That's why this can never be solved, we let religion and fanaticism in the room.

Yes, that's why Hamas wants to establish an Islamic caliphate of Palestine over the corpse of a destroyed Israel, while Israel is a tolerant secular democracy home to about two million Arab Muslims who live as Israeli citizens as well as doing an amazing job hosting and protecting holy shrines of all major world religions.

I'm fully aware of the propaganda.

(IMPORTANT REFERENCE on HAMAS)

With regards to the rise of Islamists to power and the significance and impact this has on the issue, this does not imply that Palestine only needs Islamists, or that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, as national Islamic Palestinian powers, are only in need of Islamists due to their importance, distinction, and firm position towards the issue. On the contrary, we need all the nation’s trends and elements; the Islamists, nationalists, liberals, and the left-wing. This is our nation, and we need everyone in it, and Palestine was and will remain a national issue. It is also necessary to disassociate ourselves from any divisions or sectarian, racial, or religious alignments. May Allah rid us of the hateful sectarianism that has spread over the region; May Allah rid us of racial, religious, and denominational divisions. Our nation has always been characterised with this beautiful diversity; this is a history that we have inherited, which has formed the nation’s civilization and course throughout history. Today, it is wrong for us to explore these gaps, in which our enemies pour oil and fire to destroy us. This not only requires us to instil correct ideas and concepts, but also entails that our behaviour, as countries, movements, academics, or intellectuals must be in line with these positions and concepts, and does not promote sectarian or ethnic feelings.

(COMMENT)

As you can tell by the Khalid Mishaal quote, that HAMAS is keeping it options open; especially in regards to excessive devotion to Islam and the idea of a Caliphate. For Palestine, this is a tightrope. HAMAS and the Palestinians cannot be seen as being on the wrong side of the Koran. If you study Khalid Mishaal, you will notice that he see the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) from three aspect angles:

• A simple Islamic Movement,
• A a very familiar national liberations movement,
• Palestinian rallying point, a new central hub.
​

But Mishaal does not see HAMAS as a hard core advocate, and introduction of, establishing a new order in the Arab League

An Islamist is "an advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam." (wikipedia) He does not have a vision of HAMAS contributing to a Salafist movement or Caliphate, a return to the 7th Century Islamic ideas and morals of the era of era at the expense inalienable rights (in a Caliphate, the Caliph has absolute authority).

DAESH (ISIS) seeks to establish political domain and the agencies by using religious institutions,
such as sharia courts, to support and justify the political arm.

Salafi-jihadist (militant Sunni Islamism - Salafism, an Islamist revivalist movement within Sunni Islam) based on two criteria.

First, the importance of returning to a “pure” Islam, and activity that is justified by the new color of law.
Second, the spread and adoption jihad is fard ‘ayn (a personal religious duty).
​

While it cannot be denied that Mishaal and HAMAS have advocated the first many time, most recently in the HAMAS Position Paper of 2012, clearly the first criteria is going to be very hard to secure.

Most Respectfully,
R

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

You have two extremist groups that will never be able to come any peaceful settlement.

Wow what a bunch of hogwash was that. Palestinians voted for Hamas, a barbaric terrorist organization to rule both the West Bank and Gaza. They currently rule and control all of Gaza. Yet another desperate bullshit nonsensical Monte comparison goes down in flames.

Thats fine. Palestinians electing Hamas has caused Bibi to now add Lieberman to his staff to deal with Palestinians. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

I thought the percentages were a bit different???

There are a lot more Palestinians out there that provide material support to terrorism and the continuation of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict than you might think.

Firstly, Hamas is supported by a minority of Palestinians, about 34% at most. The Jewish Home party (Habayit Yehudi) and now even Likud have the same aims as Hamas, replacing Judaism for Islam and to make Israel 100% preferably free of non-Jews or guaranteed Jewish rule over non-Jews, with Jews maintaining their current privileges over non-Jews in terms of land, right of return etc. They represent a larger minority, if not a majority among the Jews.

(QUESTION)

∆ HAMAS --- Fatah --- PFLP

• Which one of these three is not like the others?

√ HAMAS is a Designated terrorist organization.
√ PFLP is a Designated terrorist organization.
​

(COMMENT)

Most Palestinians, especially supporters of HAMAS, think that the West (ie the US) intentionally misrepresents the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) as a terrorist organization.

HAMAS, tries to paint the face of an anti-colonial resistance and diplomacy image on the picture they have historically presented. HAMAS wants to be thought of as the same venue as the the Old IRA or ANC. They do not want the images that stretch between the Olympic Massacre in Munich to the Kidnap and Murder of three teens at the characterization conjured when the name HAMAS is spoken.

Most Respectfully,
R

​

 

[RoccoR]

Fenton Lum, et al,

If anyone think that there has been any Empire of the past that has not had a ton of blood on there hands; its a bit naive. No one really believes that. And just as true, there has never been a time when the great religious leaders (with the God of Abraham in common) of the world that did not bathe in the innocent blood of others over pray and freedoms. And they still do today, the great religious leaders still use religion to promote evil and not the conception of good. None of the influential religious leaders have weighed-in on these current events to reset the the conditions to something more acceptable.

EXCLUSIVE: Hate texts sent to Jewish Community Center athletic official on Staten Island over youth basketball · 1d
A bad sport enraged by the results of a youth basketball game sent a barrage of vile, anti-Semitic text messages to an …
New York Daily News
Hate texts

‘Kill the Jew!’ 12-year-old boy brutally beaten at school in shocking hate-filled attack · 2h
A New Haven, Connecticut schoolboy and his family are accusing his classmates of targeting him for physical and verbal attacks because he is Jewish, the New Haven Register reports. Orit Avizov told a local news station that her 12-year-old …
Raw Story

Toronto Jews urged to mobilize against Islamist hate rally · 1d
On July 2, thousands of Islamists, radical anti-Israel activists and members of the fringe anti-Zionist group Naturei Karta will once again march in downtown Toronto to for an end to the Jewish State amid frenzied chants of “Zionism is terrorism ...
​

And still, we're left with that legacy, and it's a mess, regardless of how one chooses to look back on the legacy. But if you're attempting to suggest our motives are of a more pure nature today for intervention than those we can pretzel ourselves into rationalizing in the past, not sure I agree. As for taking whatever you can? Our empire will not last forever either. And we won't be able to fund it forever either.

(COMMENT)

Understanding the events of the past may be inspiring and sometime (only occasionally) leading us to an epiphany, but cannot be used as a major justification for aggression or re-ordering of a given territory. That must be based on expectations. And only the intelligent can craft a reasonably close stab as the outcomes for tomorrow (expectations).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Fenton Lum]

Fenton Lum, et al,

If anyone think that there has been any Empire of the past that has not had a ton of blood on there hands; its a bit naive. No one really believes that. And just as true, there has never been a time when the great religious leaders (with the God of Abraham in common) of the world that did not bathe in the innocent blood of others over pray and freedoms. And they still do today, the great religious leaders still use religion to promote evil and not the conception of good. None of the influential religious leaders have weighed-in on these current events to reset the the conditions to something more acceptable.

View attachment 75953
EXCLUSIVE: Hate texts sent to Jewish Community Center athletic official on Staten Island over youth basketball · 1d
A bad sport enraged by the results of a youth basketball game sent a barrage of vile, anti-Semitic text messages to an …
New York Daily News
Hate texts
View attachment 75954
‘Kill the Jew!’ 12-year-old boy brutally beaten at school in shocking hate-filled attack · 2h
A New Haven, Connecticut schoolboy and his family are accusing his classmates of targeting him for physical and verbal attacks because he is Jewish, the New Haven Register reports. Orit Avizov told a local news station that her 12-year-old …
Raw Story
View attachment 75955
Toronto Jews urged to mobilize against Islamist hate rally · 1d
On July 2, thousands of Islamists, radical anti-Israel activists and members of the fringe anti-Zionist group Naturei Karta will once again march in downtown Toronto to for an end to the Jewish State amid frenzied chants of “Zionism is terrorism ...
​

And still, we're left with that legacy, and it's a mess, regardless of how one chooses to look back on the legacy. But if you're attempting to suggest our motives are of a more pure nature today for intervention than those we can pretzel ourselves into rationalizing in the past, not sure I agree. As for taking whatever you can? Our empire will not last forever either. And we won't be able to fund it forever either.

(COMMENT)

Understanding the events of the past may be inspiring and sometime (only occasionally) leading us to an epiphany, but cannot be used as a major justification for aggression or re-ordering of a given territory. That must be based on expectations. And only the intelligent can craft a reasonably close stab as the outcomes for tomorrow (expectations).

Most Respectfully,
R

"If anyone think that there has been any Empire of the past that has not had a ton of blood on there hands; its a bit naive."

That's not really the question though is it.