New Yorks Stop and Frisk Policy

[ClosedCaption]

I saw a video the other day with current and former police officers who said they were being pressured to do "250's" or stop and frisks just because its a numbers game. So they were expected to get more and more no matter what and just to keep the bosses off their backs and retaliation.

•In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
350,743 were black (53 percent).
223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
61,805 were white (9 percent).
341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).

•In 2012, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 533,042 times
473,300 were totally innocent (89 percent).
286,684 were black (55 percent).
166,212 were Latino (32 percent).
50,615 were white (10 percent).

NYPD Stop And Frisks: 15 Shocking Facts About A Controversial Program

NYPD Will Stop You For 'Inappropriate Attire Off Season'

Also, for visible bulges in your pocket. And, in 51.3 percent of the stops in 2011, cops cited "furtive movements" as justification for the stops.


Many Stops Are Unconstitutional

When the Supreme Court deemed stop and frisk a legal practice, they set up a standard of "reasonable suspicion" under which cops “must be able to point to specific and articulable facts.” To rely on “inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or [a] ‘hunch’ ” is not permitted. In almost one out of three stops, according to The Center For Constitutional Rights, the NYPD fails to meet this standard:

Nearly 150,000 stops over the last six years are facially unconstitutional and lack any legal justification. All together, 30 percent of all stops are unconstitutional, underlining a severe lack of adequate officer oversight in the NYPD.

Whites Are Almost Twice As Likely To Be Found With A Weapon

The NYPD and politicians have repeatedly justified the racial disparity in stop and frisks saying that they cops essentially go where the guns are, i.e. minority neighborhoods. Yet, only 1.9 percent of frisks in 2011 turned up weapons and interestingly, according to the NYCLU, "a weapon was found in only 1.8 percent of blacks and Latinos frisked, as compared to a weapon being found in 3.8 percent of whites frisked."

Thoughts?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Why should anyone who doesn't live in NY care? They love their nanny state up there.

 

[tjvh]

Democrat Police Union thugs shaking down Democrats in NYC... I have no problem with crazy Democrat havens acting crazy towards other Democrats. It just doesn't bother me.

 

[bucs90]

Interesting. "Reasonable suspicion" is very different than "Probable cause". RS doesnt need an actual law to have been violated. Just something that indicates a person may be suspicious. That is a VERY fine line, obviously.

A person in July wearing a heavy coat and long pants with a beanie cap? Kinda weird. Doing so on a dark street at 1am, when the temp is 88 degrees and humid? Yeah, thats probably enough for reasonable suspicion.

A large bulge in the waistband area? In a geographic area known for people carrying illegal guns? Cops have used that for decades.

A person who sees a cop, then immediately places a hand over a bulge in a pocket? Studies have shown a subconcious tendency for a person to place a hand on contraband items when they are startled by the sight of a cop.

This all stems from "Terry vs Ohio", aka, the "Terry Stop" law. An Ohio cops heard a window break, turned the corner, and stopped a guy who was standing near the broken window. Guy said cop had no proof he broke the window, and thus, had no right to stop him. Court ruled that his mere presence was suspicious enough to warrant a stop.

Good topic. Im on the fence about it. It absolutely borders on harrasssment, BUT, is also a proven tactic to reduce crime in an area. Very very fine line to walk.

 

[bucs90]

Democrat Police Union thugs shaking down Democrats in NYC... I have no problem with crazy Democrat havens acting crazy towards other Democrats. It just doesn't bother me.

You consider New York cops to be "thugs"? And you wonder why cops left the Republican Party en mass in 2012.

 

[ClosedCaption]

I gotta remember that some ppl only care about rights when it directly affects them

 

[gallantwarrior]

Despite claims that more whites are carrying firearms, they are far less likely to use those firearms than minorities?

 

[bucs90]

Despite claims that more whites are carrying firearms, they are far less likely to use those firearms than minorities?

I think the stat is misleading. The stat shows blacks and hispanics are FAR more likely to be stopped. Thus, those groups are probably less secure in carrying a gun. Whites feel like they are less likely to be stopped, and thus, more comfortable carrying.

As for the stat that blacks/hispanics are more likely to be stopped.......most PD's use a COMPSTAT software crime mapping system. Its a great system, and it basically takes all the reported crimes, overlays it on a huge map with different markers/colors for each type crime, then uses that to predict the GEOGRAPHIC AREA of the next most likely area for a crime to occur.

PD's use this in court all the time. They dont profile. They use a computer, they enter the crime stats, the computer predicts what geographic area is most likely to see crime. Cops deploy their resources according to those geographic predictions. It so happens that the geographic areas NYPD is seeing crime is in the mostly black/hispanic areas.

I bet cops in Montana and Alaska stop and arrest far more whites than anything else.

 

[Avatar4321]

What worries me is if these stops are challenged in the Court and the court creates precedent allowing looser standards for stops.

 

[tjvh]

Democrat Police Union thugs shaking down Democrats in NYC... I have no problem with crazy Democrat havens acting crazy towards other Democrats. It just doesn't bother me.

You consider New York cops to be "thugs"? And you wonder why cops left the Republican Party en mass in 2012.

Union thugs. Nothing about pro Democrat Police Union members violating the Rights of Democrats in NYC I see...

 

[Avatar4321]

Democrat Police Union thugs shaking down Democrats in NYC... I have no problem with crazy Democrat havens acting crazy towards other Democrats. It just doesn't bother me.

You consider New York cops to be "thugs"? And you wonder why cops left the Republican Party en mass in 2012.

There are good cops and there are cops that are corrupt as heck.

Ive seen both sides. I think it's naive to pretend its all one way or another.

I also know that cops tend to be more corrupt in certain precincts than others.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Despite claims that more whites are carrying firearms, they are far less likely to use those firearms than minorities?

I think the stat is misleading. The stat shows blacks and hispanics are FAR more likely to be stopped. Thus, those groups are probably less secure in carrying a gun. Whites feel like they are less likely to be stopped, and thus, more comfortable carrying.

As for the stat that blacks/hispanics are more likely to be stopped.......most PD's use a COMPSTAT software crime mapping system. Its a great system, and it basically takes all the reported crimes, overlays it on a huge map with different markers/colors for each type crime, then uses that to predict the GEOGRAPHIC AREA of the next most likely area for a crime to occur.

PD's use this in court all the time. They dont profile. They use a computer, they enter the crime stats, the computer predicts what geographic area is most likely to see crime. Cops deploy their resources according to those geographic predictions. It so happens that the geographic areas NYPD is seeing crime is in the mostly black/hispanic areas.

I bet cops in Montana and Alaska stop and arrest far more whites than anything else.

Probably because our populations have a higher ratio of whites to others.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Interesting. "Reasonable suspicion" is very different than "Probable cause". RS doesnt need an actual law to have been violated. Just something that indicates a person may be suspicious. That is a VERY fine line, obviously.

A person in July wearing a heavy coat and long pants with a beanie cap? Kinda weird. Doing so on a dark street at 1am, when the temp is 88 degrees and humid? Yeah, thats probably enough for reasonable suspicion.

A large bulge in the waistband area? In a geographic area known for people carrying illegal guns? Cops have used that for decades.

A person who sees a cop, then immediately places a hand over a bulge in a pocket? Studies have shown a subconcious tendency for a person to place a hand on contraband items when they are startled by the sight of a cop.

This all stems from "Terry vs Ohio", aka, the "Terry Stop" law. An Ohio cops heard a window break, turned the corner, and stopped a guy who was standing near the broken window. Guy said cop had no proof he broke the window, and thus, had no right to stop him. Court ruled that his mere presence was suspicious enough to warrant a stop.

Good topic. Im on the fence about it. It absolutely borders on harrasssment, BUT, is also a proven tactic to reduce crime in an area. Very very fine line to walk.

Actually from the same article:

Stop And Frisks Don't Always Drive Down Murder Statistics

It is true that the first decade of the aughts in New York City has seen significantly fewer murders than say, the 1980s, when there were about 2,000 slayings a year. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, and others believe this drop is largely due to stop and frisks taking guns off the street. The link, however, between increased stop and frisks and lower murder rates could be a tenuous one. From The New York Times:

In 2002, when Mr. Kelly last took office, officers stopped 97,296 New Yorkers and the city reported 587 homicides. Last year, those numbers were 685,724 and 532.

And from WNYC:

Last week, the NYPD said stop-and-frisk was used more than 200,000 times in the first quarter of this year – a 10 percent jump from the same period last year. The data covers the period from January to March. So far this year homicides are down by 19 percent over last year.
But of the 13 precincts where homicides were up, stop and frisks increased in six over the same reporting period last year. And in the remaining seven, stop and frisks were down.

“There is no evidence that stop and frisk is lowering or suppressing the murder rate in New York City,” said Chris Dunn, spokesman for the NYCLU, in a statement. “Murders have dropped steadily since 1990.”

 

[bucs90]

Democrat Police Union thugs shaking down Democrats in NYC... I have no problem with crazy Democrat havens acting crazy towards other Democrats. It just doesn't bother me.

You consider New York cops to be "thugs"? And you wonder why cops left the Republican Party en mass in 2012.

There are good cops and there are cops that are corrupt as heck.

Ive seen both sides. I think it's naive to pretend its all one way or another.

I also know that cops tend to be more corrupt in certain precincts than others.

Very true. "Corruption" is far less common in police work than most people think. Its just that the times it does happens, it is front page news for a long time. Also, some people confuse "corruption" with "Cops doing stuff I dont like".

You're also right about the environment created bad apple cops. 99% enter with great intentions. But working in the slums of NY or LA can indeed turn some bad. They call it some term I cant recall, but its a process:

- Administrative omission; cutting corners on paperwork, not doing some stuff
- Administrative commission; actually violating policies, purposely
- Criminal omission; Seeing something criminal, and just ignoring it
- Criminal commission; Committing a crime yourself

PD's try to stop this process at the 1st step, by hammering down on admin mistakes and having paramilitary structure and discipline to stop the admin stuff. And most of the time, they correct the officer and get him back on track, or the cop quits. A few dont get corrected, dont quit, and somehow dont get fired until they hit the criminal parts. This is one area that the anti-union guys are right about. If an officer cant be corrected when showing admin errors, and keeps disobeying his command on that, its sometimes hard to fire him until he commits a criminal acts.

 

[bucs90]

Despite claims that more whites are carrying firearms, they are far less likely to use those firearms than minorities?

I think the stat is misleading. The stat shows blacks and hispanics are FAR more likely to be stopped. Thus, those groups are probably less secure in carrying a gun. Whites feel like they are less likely to be stopped, and thus, more comfortable carrying.

As for the stat that blacks/hispanics are more likely to be stopped.......most PD's use a COMPSTAT software crime mapping system. Its a great system, and it basically takes all the reported crimes, overlays it on a huge map with different markers/colors for each type crime, then uses that to predict the GEOGRAPHIC AREA of the next most likely area for a crime to occur.

PD's use this in court all the time. They dont profile. They use a computer, they enter the crime stats, the computer predicts what geographic area is most likely to see crime. Cops deploy their resources according to those geographic predictions. It so happens that the geographic areas NYPD is seeing crime is in the mostly black/hispanic areas.

I bet cops in Montana and Alaska stop and arrest far more whites than anything else.

Probably because our populations have a higher ratio of whites to others.

Exactly. Most PD's use COMPSTAT. It predicts a geographic area of crime based on past stats. Cops are sent to those areas. It has absolutely no data on race to consider. If crime happens in white areas, cops go there. Black areas? Cops go there. Its very simple and unbias.

 

[bodecea]

I gotta remember that some ppl only care about rights when it directly affects them

That surprises you?

 

[Avatar4321]

You consider New York cops to be "thugs"? And you wonder why cops left the Republican Party en mass in 2012.

There are good cops and there are cops that are corrupt as heck.

Ive seen both sides. I think it's naive to pretend its all one way or another.

I also know that cops tend to be more corrupt in certain precincts than others.

Very true. "Corruption" is far less common in police work than most people think. Its just that the times it does happens, it is front page news for a long time. Also, some people confuse "corruption" with "Cops doing stuff I dont like".

You're also right about the environment created bad apple cops. 99% enter with great intentions. But working in the slums of NY or LA can indeed turn some bad. They call it some term I cant recall, but its a process:

- Administrative omission; cutting corners on paperwork, not doing some stuff
- Administrative commission; actually violating policies, purposely
- Criminal omission; Seeing something criminal, and just ignoring it
- Criminal commission; Committing a crime yourself

PD's try to stop this process at the 1st step, by hammering down on admin mistakes and having paramilitary structure and discipline to stop the admin stuff. And most of the time, they correct the officer and get him back on track, or the cop quits. A few dont get corrected, dont quit, and somehow dont get fired until they hit the criminal parts. This is one area that the anti-union guys are right about. If an officer cant be corrected when showing admin errors, and keeps disobeying his command on that, its sometimes hard to fire him until he commits a criminal acts.

Ive found corruption quite common unfortunately. I wonder how much better our cities would be if the police eliminated corruption from their midst completely.

 

[ClosedCaption]

I gotta remember that some ppl only care about rights when it directly affects them

That surprises you?

You know, I thought it wouldn't after the whole Patriot Act debacle but some ppls memories are waaay shorter than I suspected

 

[DigitalDrifter]

New York needs to stop calling itself "The Empire State", and start calling itself what it really is, "The Police State".

 

[there4eyeM]

And some worry about pot or guns!

If the constitution can be trampled with random police stops, not only cars but individuals walking the street, the other 'infringements' are small potatoes.