Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

[jillian]

Wow, he's really putting himself out on a limb in an attempt to keep at least one of his promises.

I think this one will pretty much ensure he doesn't have a second term.

LOL!!! Because it's an American value to deny certain citizens the rights the rest of us enjoy?

Maybe it's a right wing value to be bigotted and prejudiced, but most Americans are not that way.

I'm pretty sure that the people who voted for him won't give a darn... and the people who object wouldn't have voted for him anyway because he said he'd do this when he was running. I doubt they'd be overly shocked.

 

[rdean]

Our Pentagon gives Secret Clearances to gay soldiers from England and Germany. Those soldiers work side by side with our soldiers and walk through our Pentagon as Members Of NATO.

Why does the right feel more comfortable with gays from other countries than with gays from this country? Curious question.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/world/europe/21britain.html

 

[DiamondDave]

Do you suppose there have already been homosexuals serving in the armed forces? Not only today, but throughout our history?

Do you suppose the problems that have arisen when they have been discovered in a living environment?? Do you suppose the problems of how you house a bi-sexual? Do you house them all separate as to not offend, not act sexually, etc, around other soldiers in that living environment? Do you not see the inherent logistical and morale problems simply because of your leftist touchy-feely political correctness goggles??

Do you suppose those gay service men and women served effectively?

The problems that occur when they are outed...are those exclusively problems started by the gay service men and women, or the heterosexual service men and women who merely took offense?

My point is: if service to one's country is an honorable pursuit, than shouldn't any one physically and mentally qualified to serve be given that chance?

The homophobic views of previous administrations have purged the services of valuable members (translators immediately come to mind) simply because those homophobes couldn't handle the situation. I wonder then what other critical situations they could not handle?

Again

It is not about whether they can fire a goddamn weapon, fix a piece crypto equipment, or cook for a platoon....

You could argue that someone living the homosexual lifestyle IS NOT mentally qualified... just as someone with a depression problem is not, even though we still treat that person with respect and they can hold most any other government job or private sector job.... it is not conducive to the military mission

It is not homophobic.. it is simple goddamn logistics

 

[DiamondDave]

Our Pentagon gives Secret Clearances to gay soldiers from England and Germany. Those soldiers work side by side with our soldiers and walk through our Pentagon as Members Of NATO.

Why does the right feel more comfortable with gays from other countries than with gays from this country? Curious question.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/world/europe/21britain.html

Clearance to information on a need to know basis is not the same as housing, billeting, upkeep, and all the logistics behind that, is not quite the same


But thanks for playing.. see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

 

[DiamondDave]

And when discovered, do you not know of the inherent issues that have amassed because of those situations??

Jill... don't be this naive

I believe in dignity and respect as well.. but not all things are for every person... just as you do not have a no legged person qualifying for the military, even though they want to serve... just as a person with a mental disorder, though normally OK a majority of the time, does not belong in the military... it has nothing to do about respect, but how a military unit MUST function... the homosexuals and bi-sexuals are indeed a hindrance to the military, all political correctness and touchy-feely bullshit aside

Dan Choi said his troops had zero problem with him being gay.

Dan Choi Explains 'Why I Cannot Stay Quiet' - ABC News

Biography

Choi graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 2003 with degrees in Arabic and environmental engineering.[3] Choi served as an infantry officer in Iraq in 2006 and 2007. In June 2008, he transferred from active duty Army to the New York National Guard. Choi serves as a National Guardsman with the 1st Battalion, 69th Infantry, based in Manhattan.[3]

Choi received a discharge letter following his coming out on the The Rachel Maddow Show. In response, Choi penned an open letter to U.S. President Barack Obama and the United States Congress.[4] In the letter, Choi challenged the morality and wisdom of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, writing that the policy is "a slap in the face to me. It is a slap in the face to my soldiers, peers and leaders who have demonstrated that an infantry unit can be professional enough to accept diversity, to accept capable leaders, to accept skilled soldiers."
Despite his appeal and a Courage Campaign petition signed by almost 162,000 people, on June 30, 2009, a panel of New York National Guard officers recommended that Choi be discharged from the military.[5] The final decision, to be made by the commander of First Army and the chief of the National Guard Bureau, is still pending.

Choi is among 59 gay Arabic linguists, along with 9 gay Farsi linguists, who have faced a discharge from the U.S. military from Don't Ask Don't Tell's inception until June 2009.[6]


Gay rights activism
Since Choi's coming out, 38 West Point alumni also came out and announced the formation of Knights Out, an organization of West Point alumni who support the rights of LGBT soldiers to serve openly. Choi was one of the founding members and is the spokesperson for the group.[7]. The organization offers "to help their alma mater educate future Army leaders on the need to accept and honor the sacrifices of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender troops."[7][8]

Choi has also spoken at numerous gay rights events, including a march in Los Angeles following the California Supreme Court's affirmation of Proposition 8. On May 27, 2009, he addressed a demonstration of gay activists outside the Beverly Hilton Hotel, where President Barack Obama was speaking at a Democratic National Committee fund raising event[9]. In addition, Choi spoke at the 2009 Pride Rally in New York City and served as a Grand Marshal alongside Knights Out in San Francisco's 2009 Gay Pride Parade.[10]

On July 16, 2009 Choi was in Culver City, California to introduce the premiere of Abe Forman-Greenwald's documentary called Silent Partners.[11] The documentary is the fourth episode in the In Their Boots series, with the episode focusing on the partners of LGBT soldiers deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. In the episode, Choi criticizes the U.S. military's neglect of the partners of service members.[11]

http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/Daniel_Choi?src=abop&fwd=1&q=dan+choi&qpvt=dan+choi

Tell me this man doesn't honor his uniform:

Rachel Maddow: Lt. Colonel Victor Fehrenbach Discharged For Being Gay - Video - YouTube

You bringing out Maddow or a single example does not sway the situation, nor does it change the logistics behind it all....

It makes you personally feel good about the situation, but it changes nothing....

 

[uscitizen]

And you have increased rules and logistics behind the housing of women AND men in training, field deployments, etc... and when you throw another monkey wrench into the system such as homosexuals, you complicate things even MORE.... and as stated, the morale issue is MAJOR

What are you going to do, house gay men with lesbians? 4 separate areas of a barracks?

The plain and simple fact is that it is a logistical nightmare and there are good reasons why gays in the military are frowned upon... and it has nothing to do with whether they can fire a weapon or repair an engine on a Humvee

Name some then.

Housing and rooming situations. Additional facilities for personal care and hygene
Revamping and remodeling of buildings to accommodate changes
Completely redoing deployment plans to accommodate


You want even more??

You are a fucking buffoon... this is a logistical nightmare and a hindrance to morale... whether it is PC to say so or not

why would seperate facs be needed for gays?
Heck the navy has not had seperate facs for the males have they?
We have gays in there now and no seperate facs don't we?

Would that apply to gay females as well?

 

[DiamondDave]

Name some then.

Housing and rooming situations. Additional facilities for personal care and hygene
Revamping and remodeling of buildings to accommodate changes
Completely redoing deployment plans to accommodate


You want even more??

You are a fucking buffoon... this is a logistical nightmare and a hindrance to morale... whether it is PC to say so or not

why would seperate facs be needed for gays?

Would that apply to gay females as well?

Yes.. it would... and bi-sexuals add a whole other monkey wrench into the situation

As it is now... it is pretty easy to show that a guy is wrong for walking into a woman's shower... it is pretty simple to say that you do not house men and women in the same room... do you now have soldiers claiming to be gay to sleep in a women's room? Do you have women and men constantly questioning their privacy or being personally violated, and consider that a good thing??

Again... this adds tons of logictical problems to the whole situation... and much like you do not have bi-polar people being allowed in or to remain in, just as you treat an obese person as an equal as a person even though you do not let them in or allow them to stay in the military, this has ZERO to do about equality or about whether they can perform some task that a military person can do... it is about the logistics and problems inherent that get injected into the military system and military unit because of the problems those people bring

 

[uscitizen]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

 

[rdean]

Our Pentagon gives Secret Clearances to gay soldiers from England and Germany. Those soldiers work side by side with our soldiers and walk through our Pentagon as Members Of NATO.

Why does the right feel more comfortable with gays from other countries than with gays from this country? Curious question.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/world/europe/21britain.html

Clearance to information on a need to know basis is not the same as housing, billeting, upkeep, and all the logistics behind that, is not quite the same


But thanks for playing.. see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

Gee, I hate to break it to ya "Sparky", but when I was on "training" exercises in Germany, in the seventies, with German and English soldiers, we shared bunkers. We changed clothes in front of each other. I'm pretty sure this one German Lt. was gay, but I found out that if you ignore certain suggestions, they stop making them. I was never "scared" or "terrified".
Conseratives are bullies and bullies are pussies underneath it all. True chickens. Bwak Bwak. Ooh, the bad scary gay. Ooh. Bwak bwak.

 

[jillian]

You bringing out Maddow or a single example does not sway the situation, nor does it change the logistics behind it all....

It makes you personally feel good about the situation, but it changes nothing....

I included the Maddow video, after all of the information about the officer in question, because its important to humanize people and not view them as labels. Once you personalize someone, the label doesn't matter as much. People who know gays have fewer issues with gays because all the prejudice disappears.

They find out that gays really aren't interested in heteros and aren't gonig to come on to them...and if they did, well, same diff as if i work for a guy who hits on me. you say no thanks and a normal person stops. anything more would be harassment and should result in the person being disciplined regardless if they're gay or hetero.

 

[manifold]

I admit that I'm no expert on this subject, but wouldn't repeal of don't ask don't tell simply revert back to the previous policy?

And wasn't the previous policy that queers are not allowed to serve at all?

 

[DiamondDave]

You bringing out Maddow or a single example does not sway the situation, nor does it change the logistics behind it all....

It makes you personally feel good about the situation, but it changes nothing....

I included the Maddow video, after all of the information about the officer in question, because its important to humanize people and not view them as labels. Once you personalize someone, the label doesn't matter as much. People who know gays have fewer issues with gays because all the prejudice disappears.

They find out that gays really aren't interested in heteros and aren't gonig to come on to them...and if they did, well, same diff as if i work for a guy who hits on me. you say no thanks and a normal person stops. anything more would be harassment and should result in the person being disciplined regardless if they're gay or hetero.

Sorry to tell you.. but the military is not about humanizing people or groups... it is about the mission and only the mission... it is about the ability to get the job done with as little hindrances as possible

Not all men will 'come on' to all women in the military as well... but you must take the situation into account... you must take the necessary separation into account... you must take the unit morale over the individual morale into account as well...

Again, Jill.. this is NOT about whether an individual gay or an individual obese person or an individual bi-polar person simply doing a job or function... this is about the unit, this is about the military machine, and too many monkey wrenches in the gears of war will hinder the war machine

 

[DiamondDave]

Our Pentagon gives Secret Clearances to gay soldiers from England and Germany. Those soldiers work side by side with our soldiers and walk through our Pentagon as Members Of NATO.

Why does the right feel more comfortable with gays from other countries than with gays from this country? Curious question.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/world/europe/21britain.html

Clearance to information on a need to know basis is not the same as housing, billeting, upkeep, and all the logistics behind that, is not quite the same


But thanks for playing.. see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

Gee, I hate to break it to ya "Sparky", but when I was on "training" exercises in Germany, in the seventies, with German and English soldiers, we shared bunkers. We changed clothes in front of each other. I'm pretty sure this one German Lt. was gay, but I found out that if you ignore certain suggestions, they stop making them. I was never "scared" or "terrified".
Conseratives are bullies and bullies are pussies underneath it all. True chickens. Bwak Bwak. Ooh, the bad scary gay. Ooh. Bwak bwak.

Again, moron... this is not about some supposed fear that you wingers like to bring up... it is indeed about unit cohesiveness, logistics, etc... I don't care if you changed clothes in front of a Brit, a Turk, a Panamanian, or a goddamn martian... logistics and reality are what they are... and what allowing openly gay and bi-sexual soldiers into the military is, is a logistical nightmare

 

[DiamondDave]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

You currently have no openly acting gays who are allowed to serve.. the Navy does not allow open homosexuals to serve, so of course there are no separate facilities

but nice try

 

[uscitizen]

I admit that I'm no expert on this subject, but wouldn't repeal of don't ask don't tell simply revert back to the previous policy?

And wasn't the previous policy that queers are not allowed to serve at all?

A valid point.

 

[bodecea]

I admit that I'm no expert on this subject, but wouldn't repeal of don't ask don't tell simply revert back to the previous policy?

And wasn't the previous policy that queers are not allowed to serve at all?

A good question, but I don't think that is what is going to happen.

 

[uscitizen]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

You currently have no openly acting gays who are allowed to serve.. the Navy does not allow open homosexuals to serve, so of course there are no separate facilities

but nice try

As I posted before isn't sex between the troops of any sex officially forbidden while on active duty?

 

[bodecea]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

You currently have no openly acting gays who are allowed to serve.. the Navy does not allow open homosexuals to serve, so of course there are no separate facilities

but nice try

Actually there are and there have been over the years. It all depends on what the person's command wants to do about it. But as you have seen in this thread, there are many gays serving that pretty much are known to be gay....and no one tries to get rid of them. There's an excellent book I recommend you read "Conduct Unbecoming" which talks about the U.S. military's policies or lack thereof on gay soldiers and sailors since the time this country began. The way gays were treated go from open acceptance to being courtmartialed and locked up for years. It's all over the place.

 

[bodecea]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

You currently have no openly acting gays who are allowed to serve.. the Navy does not allow open homosexuals to serve, so of course there are no separate facilities

but nice try

As I posted before isn't sex between the troops of any sex officially forbidden while on active duty?

Yep, and fratinization (sp) is punishable by UCMJ.

 

[DiamondDave]

Just hoopla, we currently have gays (male and female) serving without any seperate facs.
and the navy has never had seperate facs for gays...

You currently have no openly acting gays who are allowed to serve.. the Navy does not allow open homosexuals to serve, so of course there are no separate facilities

but nice try

Actually there are and there have been over the years. It all depends on what the person's command wants to do about it. But as you have seen in this thread, there are many gays serving that pretty much are known to be gay....and no one tries to get rid of them. There's an excellent book I recommend you read "Conduct Unbecoming" which talks about the U.S. military's policies or lack thereof on gay soldiers and sailors since the time this country began. The way gays were treated go from open acceptance to being courtmartialed and locked up for years. It's all over the place.

State the military command policy allowing open homosexuals to serve

We'll be waiting