Bull Ring Side Question A: Would danielpalos support Govt forcing LGBT counseling business to advertise reparative therapy they don't believe in to accommodate

[emilynghiem]

Again, another side question came up while discussing and debating the source of bias with danielpalos

TheProgressivePatriot MadChemist or anyone else who wants to help is welcome to try

The Question was whether Govt can force a Business to include services or images/advertising on its website they do not believe in, ban them from posting beliefs or explanations related to why they do or don't provide certain services, and regulate advertising or freedom of speech or religion of businesses.

I thought the Hobby Lobby case defended the ability of business or corporation owners to make decisions based on their beliefs, and they DIDN'T have to be officially "churches or religious organizations" to exercise religious freedom even though their entity is a BUSINESS open to the public like Hobby Lobby.

My side question in this thread:

Would danielpalos still approve of Govt regulating business websites if it was an LGBT counseling business "forced by the same law" to
* BAN that business from advertising or expressing their moral beliefs about supporting LGBT identity, orientation, practice, expression or policies as equal human rights and inclusion
* Advertise and include "exgays" and "healing reparative therapy" (in order not to "discriminate against exgays") even though the business staff and owners "do not believe in such therapy"

When the shoe is on the other foot, when the same policy is applied to LGBT beliefs, are you okay with GOVT forcing that?

Do LGBT businesses "need to file as religious" before advertising their moral or faith based beliefs that LGBT is "naturally born and should be included equally not subject to therapy."

Do Businesses that advertise support with BLM or Rainbow flags need to file as Religious?

If they want to "advertise to the public" does the Accommodation law mean their websites could be forced by GOVT to
* advertise images of ALM if they advertise BLM
* advertise "reparative healing therapy" with "images of exgays" if they advertise images of LGBT and counseling to come out as LGBT

danielpalos
Can you admit you have a bias and would only support Govt forcing Christian businesses to accommodate LGBT services but would not agree for Govt to force LGBT businesses to provide Christian healing services for exgays?

 

[Kilroy2]

You need to separate what one believes or what one views are from selling a product to the general public.

The state generally does not say what you can sell or what services you can offer, so a religious organization can sell things or services that they want to sell.

You can only debate him on the accommodation laws as related to commerce.

 

[emilynghiem]

You need to separate what one believes or what one views are from selling a product to the general public.

The state generally does not say what you can sell or what services you can offer, so a religious organization can sell things or services that they want to sell.

You can only debate him on the accommodation laws as related to commerce.

Where does any state or federal law REQUIRE a business either to include or exclude certain beliefs on their websites?

danielpalos keeps citing Accommodations laws, but that applies to serving and treating all CUSTOMERS the same.

It does not requires businesses to be declared Religious Organizations.

You both keep citing that "once a group is a Religious Organization" .... (then certain rules or expectations follow).

In this case we are starting with a BUSINESS open to the public.

So if a BUSINESS only sells Christian books and goods, as long as ANY CUSTOMER (religious or not, Christian or not, Atheist or LGBT or any or no affiliation) can still purchase the ADVERTISED goods and services, that is NOT discriminating against the Customer but discriminating against goods and services that business DOES NOT PROVIDE TO ANYONE.
All Customers are treated the same.
But the goods and services are limited, and some are provided, some are not, thus discriminated against based on the TYPE of services or goods.

That is the ORIGINAL issue.

There are 2 more threads A and B
Question B:
If Christian Bookstores are filed as regular businesses NOT religious organizations, why are they allowed to advertise faith based products only.
But a photographer who only covers traditional Christian marriages or male/female weddings can be BANNED by govt from advertising that. And according to danielpalos must file as a Religious Organization and only serve privately not publicly to avoid conflicts with Accommodations.

If so, why aren't all Christian Bookstores or Hobby Lobby required to file as Religious Organizations?

danielpalos
If you so insist, I might agree with you if this law you suggest applies to Political Parties and equally requires those groups to file as Religious Organizations since they push Political Religions and Beliefs.
If you support such a law, let's agree to apply it universally to be fair to people of all groups, creeds, and beliefs.

All would need to stay PRIVATE if they cannot Accommodate the public equally regardless of beliefs and creeds.

colfax_m
Kilroy2

Question A is about the Govt regulating free speech and beliefs expressed on business websites.
This thread A is asking what if that policy were applied to LGBT businesses that don't believe in reparative therapy: does this mean they are advertising to exclude exgays?

 

[danielpalos]

Because they can get sued for discrimination in public accommodation if they operate on a for-profit basis instead of a religious, non-profit basis. Any other questions?

 

[emilynghiem]

Because they can get sued for discrimination in public accommodation if they operate on a for-profit basis instead of a religious, non-profit basis. Any other questions?

Not if they offer the same faith based line of services or products to ALL Customers equally regardless of the Customers' beliefs.

Are Christian Bookstores sued for only offering faith based books that are within the owners' beliefs?

When I go to Christian or Catholic bookstores open to the public, ANYONE of ANY belief or no faith or affilation alike can walk in and buy the same books they sell to anyone. The "discrimination based on the owners' beliefs" affect the inventory/services offered. If the Customer discriminates and only wants to buy nonchristian materials, or services not offered by that business, that discrimination is because of the Customer's beliefs. But the Owner will still serve that Customer based on what the business normally provides.

Are you saying Christian Bookstores can be sued for only advertising Christian books?

I'm saying discriminating against what books the business sells is NOT discriminating against Customers because ANY customer can buy those books (whether Muslim, Christian, Atheist, LGBT). But if the Bookstore does not carry any LGBT books or calendars or goods that promote beliefs against the beliefs of the owners, that is NOT discriminating against LGBT Customers who want to buy those materials, because the business does not sell those at all, to ANY Customer so ALL customers are still treated the same.

 

[danielpalos]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

 

[emilynghiem]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

 

[danielpalos]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

Not at all. Why complicate things? If the seller incorporates on a for-profit basis they are legally obligated to pursue profit not morals at every commercial opportunity. It really is that simple.

 

[emilynghiem]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

Not at all. Why complicate things? If the seller incorporates on a for-profit basis they are legally obligated to pursue profit not morals at every commercial opportunity. It really is that simple.

You are adding and enforcing a new law.
Currently, as with the Hobby Lobby case, businesses are NOT required to file as religious before protecting their beliefs and getting exempted from govt policies violating those beliefs.

I support you in proposing that we do write out agreements, as you suggest should be part of the law, and require religious groups to file in cases where their beliefs become political and involve public policy, in particular, with political parties and how to better manage political beliefs, political religions, and political religious organizations.

Do you understand the Hobby Lobby case?
People like you were arguing that only Religious Organizations like the Catholic groups could claim religious exemptions from policies such as birth control.

But Hobby Lobby extended religious exemptions to businesses where the owners had beliefs in conflict with govt policy and could not be fined or forced to comply.

So this was a huge case and controversy, because people like you DID NOT AGREE and argued "corporations or businesses don't have religious rights" UNLESS they are a religious organization like the Catholic groups that were recognized as exempted.

You are arguing similar to the opposition to the Hobby Lobby case.

 

[danielpalos]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

Not at all. Why complicate things? If the seller incorporates on a for-profit basis they are legally obligated to pursue profit not morals at every commercial opportunity. It really is that simple.

You are adding and enforcing a new law.
Currently, as with the Hobby Lobby case, businesses are NOT required to file as religious before protecting their beliefs and getting exempted from govt policies violating those beliefs.

I support you in proposing that we do write out agreements, as you suggest should be part of the law, and require religious groups to file in cases where their beliefs become political and involve public policy, in particular, with political parties and how to better manage political beliefs, political religions, and political religious organizations.

Do you understand the Hobby Lobby case?
People like you were arguing that only Religious Organizations like the Catholic groups could claim religious exemptions from policies such as birth control.

But Hobby Lobby extended religious exemptions to businesses where the owners had beliefs in conflict with govt policy and could not be fined or forced to comply.

So this was a huge case and controversy, because people like you DID NOT AGREE and argued "corporations or businesses don't have religious rights" UNLESS they are a religious organization like the Catholic groups that were recognized as exempted.

You are arguing similar to the opposition to the Hobby Lobby case.

Simplifying legal doctrine should also lower public sector costs.

 

[emilynghiem]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

Not at all. Why complicate things? If the seller incorporates on a for-profit basis they are legally obligated to pursue profit not morals at every commercial opportunity. It really is that simple.

You are adding and enforcing a new law.
Currently, as with the Hobby Lobby case, businesses are NOT required to file as religious before protecting their beliefs and getting exempted from govt policies violating those beliefs.

I support you in proposing that we do write out agreements, as you suggest should be part of the law, and require religious groups to file in cases where their beliefs become political and involve public policy, in particular, with political parties and how to better manage political beliefs, political religions, and political religious organizations.

Do you understand the Hobby Lobby case?
People like you were arguing that only Religious Organizations like the Catholic groups could claim religious exemptions from policies such as birth control.

But Hobby Lobby extended religious exemptions to businesses where the owners had beliefs in conflict with govt policy and could not be fined or forced to comply.

So this was a huge case and controversy, because people like you DID NOT AGREE and argued "corporations or businesses don't have religious rights" UNLESS they are a religious organization like the Catholic groups that were recognized as exempted.

You are arguing similar to the opposition to the Hobby Lobby case.

Simplifying legal doctrine should also lower public sector costs.

Having businesses and customers sign mediation waivers would lower costs by preventing legal action and expenses.

Either agree on terms of services, or refrain from doing business together.
And go to a business that provides the service you are looking for.

 

[danielpalos]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:17

danielpalos
Does this mean you support keeping Christian bookstores and wedding services
in private, and separate from public accommodations?

My question to you is what about LGBT counseling services.

If LGBT services are under "public accommodations"
does that mean they must include exgay conversion therapy
to ACCOMMODATE people who identify Exgay?

If you are saying this needs to remain private,
are you saying LGBT beliefs and practice should remain private
and not be a Public Policy or Public Accommodations institution?

Not at all. Why complicate things? If the seller incorporates on a for-profit basis they are legally obligated to pursue profit not morals at every commercial opportunity. It really is that simple.

You are adding and enforcing a new law.
Currently, as with the Hobby Lobby case, businesses are NOT required to file as religious before protecting their beliefs and getting exempted from govt policies violating those beliefs.

I support you in proposing that we do write out agreements, as you suggest should be part of the law, and require religious groups to file in cases where their beliefs become political and involve public policy, in particular, with political parties and how to better manage political beliefs, political religions, and political religious organizations.

Do you understand the Hobby Lobby case?
People like you were arguing that only Religious Organizations like the Catholic groups could claim religious exemptions from policies such as birth control.

But Hobby Lobby extended religious exemptions to businesses where the owners had beliefs in conflict with govt policy and could not be fined or forced to comply.

So this was a huge case and controversy, because people like you DID NOT AGREE and argued "corporations or businesses don't have religious rights" UNLESS they are a religious organization like the Catholic groups that were recognized as exempted.

You are arguing similar to the opposition to the Hobby Lobby case.

Simplifying legal doctrine should also lower public sector costs.

Having businesses and customers sign mediation waivers would lower costs by preventing legal action and expenses.

Either agree on terms of services, or refrain from doing business together.
And go to a business that provides the service you are looking for.

How well would that work at a fast food place, for example?