The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Shusha]

[
I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering it's sovereignity? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignity?

Have you ever heard the expression, "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." (Margaret Atwood)? I think it is relevant.

Arabs also created a number of laws which were unacceptable, actually much more so -- such as laws removing nationality from Jews, and laws stripping Jews of all their property and rights to own it. Some Arab countries still have different laws for Jews than for everyone else. (You know what that is, yes?) But more than that, the Arab nations created a culture of hatred and oppression and savagery that was so toxic and so dangerous that nearly all the Jews in those nations just chose to leave. There is no question of Jews returning to those lands. None. Its an issue of survival. Jews do not believe it would be safe for them to live in those lands. (Hard enough these days in Europe).

Contrast that to the situation in Israel/Palestine. While there are absentee property laws in Israel, there is no culture of hatred and oppression in Israel against the Arabs. Which is not to say there is not some level of discrimination. But there is no danger for Arabs in Israel. The survival of Arabs in Israel is not in question. They feel safe in returning.

Looking at it another way... Stealing a loaf of bread isn't "right". But if a person is starving, they might do it anyway. And, as an onlooker, you would have compassion for that starving person who performs what is normally considered an immoral act in order to survive. And you would have some level of discomfort asking that starving person to return the bread and starve to death. The immoral act thus becomes the moral one.

So are absentee property laws immoral? Sure. By today's standards, absolutely. (The standards have changed drastically in the past 100 years.) But it was and STILL IS a matter of Jewish survival. Not just the survival of Israel -- but the survival of Jews. It still is. The only way for the Jewish people to protect the Jewish people is to hold a sovereign nation.

What happened, as was normal in cases of civil war in those times and even later, was an exchange of population between the Arabs and the Jews. The exchange happened in the context of the conflict and it was mutual and should be seen that way.

 

[Shusha]

Arabs don't say that and you took land that wasn't yours to begin with.

You can't move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

Odd, don't you think, that the Arab Holy Place is built on top of the Jewish Holy Place. What was that about not taking land that wasn't yours to begin with? Odd, don't you think, that Muslims can pray in their third most holy place and yet Jews can't pray in their most holy place. What was that about having more rights than the people already living there?

 

[Coyote]

[
I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering it's sovereignity? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignity?

Have you ever heard the expression, "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." (Margaret Atwood)? I think it is relevant.

Arabs also created a number of laws which were unacceptable, actually much more so -- such as laws removing nationality from Jews, and laws stripping Jews of all their property and rights to own it. Some Arab countries still have different laws for Jews than for everyone else. (You know what that is, yes?) But more than that, the Arab nations created a culture of hatred and oppression and savagery that was so toxic and so dangerous that nearly all the Jews in those nations just chose to leave. There is no question of Jews returning to those lands. None. Its an issue of survival. Jews do not believe it would be safe for them to live in those lands. (Hard enough these days in Europe).

Contrast that to the situation in Israel/Palestine. While there are absentee property laws in Israel, there is no culture of hatred and oppression in Israel against the Arabs. Which is not to say there is not some level of discrimination. But there is no danger for Arabs in Israel. The survival of Arabs in Israel is not in question. They feel safe in returning.

Agree, that is well put and it makes sense.

Looking at it another way... Stealing a loaf of bread isn't "right". But if a person is starving, they might do it anyway. And, as an onlooker, you would have compassion for that starving person who performs what is normally considered an immoral act in order to survive. And you would have some level of discomfort asking that starving person to return the bread and starve to death. The immoral act thus becomes the moral one.

So are absentee property laws immoral? Sure. By today's standards, absolutely. (The standards have changed drastically in the past 100 years.) But it was and STILL IS a matter of Jewish survival. Not just the survival of Israel -- but the survival of Jews. It still is. The only way for the Jewish people to protect the Jewish people is to hold a sovereign nation.

What happened, as was normal in cases of civil war in those times and even later, was an exchange of population between the Arabs and the Jews. The exchange happened in the context of the conflict and it was mutual and should be seen that way.

I understand what you are saying, and agree with the principle, but do not see that the principle is rightly applied in this case. It's a horrible thing to drive people out and then create laws to prevent them from returning or even claiming their property. That is one thing. It was a terrible thing to do to those people who just wanted to live there and fled a war. And the Arab state expulsions of the Jews was just as terrible. And wrong. The fact that it was mutual doesn't change that does it? I don't think so. I think the Arab states should also make reparations or even an apology of some sort.

I DO understand what you are saying, but I am very conflicted about it.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

What is a "Palestinian?" Is that like a Unicorn?

The Arabs did not originate in the Middle East and migrated about 1600 years back.

Two corrections:

1) T one precise, the Arab Muslims came during the 630s on to invade all outside Arabia.

2) That makes it about 1400 years, and not 1600 as in your last post. And they did not migrate, at first. They invaded. Once they had the land, as with the Europeans with Australia, the Americas, etc, then one can say that they immigrated or migrated.

And still, they would like to say that they are indigenous from anywhere and everywhere they now live.

The Arabs predate Islam. They came from North Africa to the Middle East in the late 3rd, early 4th century.

Pre-Islamic Arabia - Wikipedia

The Africans pushed into Phoenicia first and instituted complete genocide. They then pushed East and South until the region was entirely under Arab control. They did not take Persia at that time as the Persians repelled them through force of arms..

Yes, Arabs, as an ethnic group predate Islam.

Do you not mean that they took over North Africa after the 7th century CE?

There was no Islam in the 3rd and 4th century CE, not until the 7th century.

Approximate locations of some of the important tribes and Empire of the Arabian Peninsula at the dawn of Islam (approximately 600 CE / 50 BH).

-----------
Who are you actually referring to who would have come to the Land of Israel, etc during the 3rd or 4th centuries CE from Africa? Which region?

Which one of the Kingdoms or clans, in the article, are you referring to when saying that they came in the 3rd or 4th centuries (BCE or CE ? )

 

[Sixties Fan]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

How many pom poms are you holding in your hand right now?

Rah, rah, rah!!!!

Arabs have the right to infiltrate and destroy Israeli property and even kill with bullets or rockets.

Israel must be a good girl. After all, she is Jewish.

 

[Coyote]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

 

[toobfreak]

who is considered indigenous to Palestine?

If you really must know:

• The Arabian Oryx
• The Striped Hyena and
• The Arabian Gazelle.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[
I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering it's sovereignity? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignity?

Have you ever heard the expression, "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." (Margaret Atwood)? I think it is relevant.

Arabs also created a number of laws which were unacceptable, actually much more so -- such as laws removing nationality from Jews, and laws stripping Jews of all their property and rights to own it. Some Arab countries still have different laws for Jews than for everyone else. (You know what that is, yes?) But more than that, the Arab nations created a culture of hatred and oppression and savagery that was so toxic and so dangerous that nearly all the Jews in those nations just chose to leave. There is no question of Jews returning to those lands. None. Its an issue of survival. Jews do not believe it would be safe for them to live in those lands. (Hard enough these days in Europe).

Contrast that to the situation in Israel/Palestine. While there are absentee property laws in Israel, there is no culture of hatred and oppression in Israel against the Arabs. Which is not to say there is not some level of discrimination. But there is no danger for Arabs in Israel. The survival of Arabs in Israel is not in question. They feel safe in returning.

Agree, that is well put and it makes sense.

Looking at it another way... Stealing a loaf of bread isn't "right". But if a person is starving, they might do it anyway. And, as an onlooker, you would have compassion for that starving person who performs what is normally considered an immoral act in order to survive. And you would have some level of discomfort asking that starving person to return the bread and starve to death. The immoral act thus becomes the moral one.

So are absentee property laws immoral? Sure. By today's standards, absolutely. (The standards have changed drastically in the past 100 years.) But it was and STILL IS a matter of Jewish survival. Not just the survival of Israel -- but the survival of Jews. It still is. The only way for the Jewish people to protect the Jewish people is to hold a sovereign nation.

What happened, as was normal in cases of civil war in those times and even later, was an exchange of population between the Arabs and the Jews. The exchange happened in the context of the conflict and it was mutual and should be seen that way.

I understand what you are saying, and agree with the principle, but do not see that the principle is rightly applied in this case. It's a horrible thing to drive people out and then create laws to prevent them from returning or even claiming their property. That is one thing. It was a terrible thing to do to those people who just wanted to live there and fled a war. And the Arab state expulsions of the Jews was just as terrible. And wrong. The fact that it was mutual doesn't change that does it? I don't think so. I think the Arab states should also make reparations or even an apology of some sort.

I DO understand what you are saying, but I am very conflicted about it.

I am sorry, and I wrote this before.

It was NOT mutual.

The Jews who lived in the Arab conquered lands did NOT lift weapons against their hosts, or host countries and ended up being expelled, as it happened with the Arabs in the Mandate for Palestine who from 1920 to 1948, and beyond, have done nothing but to lift arms and more in order to destroy Israel and the Jews.

There is absolutely NO comparison between the two.

There was no Jewish revolt agains the Arabs in those Arab countries which would have justified the expulsion and taking of land and other properties from the Jews as they were forced to leave or stay under Nazi Arab rules.

 

[Sixties Fan]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

 

[Coyote]

,,,,
I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

 

[Shusha]

The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

This is not a fair or true assessment of what the laws actually say. And maybe this is the true foundation of the problem. The implication tends to be that Israel was ethnically cleansing the territory because they somehow hate Arabs. Not true. Not what the laws say. Evidence of this in the fact that there is a large percentage of Arabs still in Israel (and in contrast nearly zero Jews remaining in Arab lands). What the laws try to do (perhaps unsuccessfully) is to prevent HOSTILE Arabs (Arabs who "sought to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel") from returning.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

 

[Coyote]

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

Sixties, would you object if I start a new thread and move this post and our discussion to it? I think we'll end up derailing this thread otherwise.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

Sixties, would you object if I start a new thread and move this post and our discussion to it? I think we'll end up derailing this thread otherwise.

Feel free

 

[Coyote]

The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

This is not a fair or true assessment of what the laws actually say. And maybe this is the true foundation of the problem. The implication tends to be that Israel was ethnically cleansing the territory because they somehow hate Arabs. Not true. Not what the laws say. Evidence of this in the fact that there is a large percentage of Arabs still in Israel (and in contrast nearly zero Jews remaining in Arab lands). What the laws try to do (perhaps unsuccessfully) is to prevent HOSTILE Arabs (Arabs who "sought to prevent the establishment of the State of Israel") from returning.

You know ... I'm going to put this in another thread also - I'll end up derailing it since it is not really on indiginous people history.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not talking to Israel - I'm talking to *you*, unless you are a spokesperson for Israel. Your statements in this forum.

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

Sixties, would you object if I start a new thread and move this post and our discussion to it? I think we'll end up derailing this thread otherwise.

Feel free

What topic title would you like?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

I think that it has been said by me (and several others) before; but I'll say it again.

⇒ ... If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

(ACKNOWLEDGEMENT)

In the ≈ 100 years of violence, between the 1920 Riots ⇔ right up to the March to Return, several actors have participated at one time or another. But the Jewish/Israelis and all the variations and factions that compose the Arab Palestinian component, have been locked together in conflict → continuously → for the entire time. And they continue to be locked in a form of conflict. The conventional forces have passed through at various times, but most all of the external actors (excluding Iran and the Shia Islamist political party and militant group based in Lebanon) have faded away; just leaving the Israelis and the Arab Palestinians to work it out themselves.

I think I said previously, there are no clean hands in this conflict. Each side has deviated, from what is considered today, Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL).

(DILEMMA)

Today, we see a stereotypical incitement operation under the cover and concealment that is billed as a non-violent protest. HAMAS has organized daily an estimated 20,000 --- 30,000 people to gather along the Gaza-Israel Border for the launch of the six-week "March of Great Return" (sometimes bigger and sometimes smaller). Several times, it has been asked: IS this is a threat to breach the border. If HAMAS could arrange the protests to simultaneously swamp the border, even an Israeli Infantry Brigade (4000 to 5000 strong) could not turn back such an assault in a "non-lethal" way.

ANSWER: It is a threat to Israel from a physical security and sovereignty standpoint. It is a threat to Israel from an economic, political and diplomatic standpoint. AND it is a threat to the regional peace.

QUESTION: What action do you expect (using the Principle of Sufficient Reason) Israel to take if the Palestinian begin to swarm and swamp the border?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

I think that it has been said by me (and several others) before; but I'll say it again.

⇒ ... If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

(ACKNOWLEDGEMENT)

In the ≈ 100 years of violence, between the 1920 Riots ⇔ right up to the March to Return, several actors have participated at one time or another. But the Jewish/Israelis and all the variations and factions that compose the Arab Palestinian component, have been locked together in conflict → continuously → for the entire time. And they continue to be locked in a form of conflict. The conventional forces have passed through at various times, but most all of the external actors (excluding Iran and the Shia Islamist political party and militant group based in Lebanon) have faded away; just leaving the Israelis and the Arab Palestinians to work it out themselves.

I think I said previously, there are no clean hands in this conflict. Each side has deviated, from what is considered today, Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL).

(DILEMMA)

Today, we see a stereotypical incitement operation under the cover and concealment that is billed as a non-violent protest. HAMAS has organized daily an estimated 20,000 --- 30,000 people to gather along the Gaza-Israel Border for the launch of the six-week "March of Great Return" (sometimes bigger and sometimes smaller). Several times, it has been asked: IS this is a threat to breach the border. If HAMAS could arrange the protests to simultaneously swamp the border, even an Israeli Infantry Brigade (4000 to 5000 strong) could not turn back such an assault in a "non-lethal" way.

ANSWER: It is a threat to Israel from a physical security and sovereignty standpoint. It is a threat to Israel from an economic, political and diplomatic standpoint. AND it is a threat to the regional peace.

QUESTION: What action do you expect (using the Principle of Sufficient Reason) Israel to take if the Palestinian begin to swarm and swamp the border?

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, I think you are applying an argument to me that I am not making. I have repeatedly said that Israel is in the right to to take action in defending it's sovereignty and protecting it's citizens regarding the swamping of it's border by huge numbers of hostile people, in particular if they are armed. It's the right of every country. Now, as with any other country the caveat is - least amount of force necessary to do the job.

Though honestly, maybe it's time to think outside the box for some of this...

What if they created and utilized chemical weapons made of laughing gas? Since teargas and smoke bombs seem less affective, use laughing gas. It's hard to be a hostile if you are laughing hysterically. In addition, all along the border fences create a ditch, filled with marijuana - and if hostiles start to try and breech it, they have run through a mile of pot smoke, and they are bound to get high. It's hard to be hostile if your high.

Alright, it's silly but it could work and pot could be a cash crop in the process.

I am not objecting to Israel's actions vis a vis it's borders and with Hamas' incitement, though there are instances where those actions need to be examined, such as the shooting of Murtaja.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You keep telling us that Israel will not acknowledge most of what it has done wrong, and when asked for a list ........where is it?

I cannot make a statement about what Israel has failed to acknowledge as doing wrong, give my opinion, if you will not tell me some of the things you believe have not been addressed by Israel and simply brushed under the rug.

So, please, may I have a list of what you believe Israel has not dealt with as doing wrong?

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

Sixties, would you object if I start a new thread and move this post and our discussion to it? I think we'll end up derailing this thread otherwise.

Feel free

What topic title would you like?

What is the bottom line of what we were discussing? LOL

Israel not acknowledging being wrong sometimes or was it more than that? Some people's view that Israel sometimes does not acknowledge or changes things in order not to harm Palestinians?

We were also discussing facts vs opinions.

And also discussing if Israel owed anything to the Arabs, since the Jews were eventually expelled from most Arab countries only two years later. If both were equal and if they should be viewed in the same way.

I am not sure what the title should be.

Can anyone else help with the title for the next thread Coyote will be starting on the subject we were discussing?

 

[Coyote]

No. I don't keep saying that. When I said what I did I was referring to the Pro-Israel team on these boards. When you post, you are stating your opinions on various issues. Not Israel's opinions.

In which of the wars did Israel use phosphorus. Has it not stopped doing it? Is that not an acknowledgment by the Israeli government that it was not the right thing to do?

Israel 'to scrap phosphorus shells'

Britain's Observer issues correction: Israel did not use chemical weapons In Gaza - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post


Besides the phosphorus, what else do I need to check on?

Whatever I post from Israeli, or other sources who have been on the ground, has been verified

I do state my opinions with the knowledge:
1) How the Israeli government operates to defend the country

2) on reports from many different sources.


One cannot say that facts written or said on television about the events, especially when checked by several sources are nothing but "My opinion" on the matter, on what has happened.

I read very carefully sites like Ma'an, Al Jazeera and others, which so many on these thread post, be it articles or videos, as much as Susha and others do.

If it correct I will say so.

If it is not, I will do the necessary research and debunk it with the evidence I have found.

Will I be believed? Will the material be believed? Will it change any minds who have decided that Israel likes to kill Palestinians and steal Palestinian land?

That is not up to me or any of the others here.

We state the facts about what has led to the conflict between Muslims and Jews. And why there was such a rejection of Jews being sovereign over their own ancient homeland.

And why it continues to this day.

Before Israel, the Jews could not freely express themselves in most countries.

Now, we have our country back, even if only part of it, and we are free to fight for our land and the truth about what is happening in the area and debunk any and all lies attributed to Israel, or any Israeli or Jew.

Are we going to be believed? Maybe.

Sometimes we will win and people will see what is true, and sometimes they will not.


You refer to our side's posts as opinions.

Does not that delegitimize in any one's mind, who does not like Israel, that such an opinion might be true, even if it is not based on facts?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Wikiquote

-----------------
Besides the phosphorus, could you let me know what other things Israel did wrong so that I may research it and give you my opinion on it?

Sixties, would you object if I start a new thread and move this post and our discussion to it? I think we'll end up derailing this thread otherwise.

Feel free

What topic title would you like?

What is the bottom line of what we were discussing? LOL

Israel not acknowledging being wrong sometimes or was it more than that? Some people's view that Israel sometimes does not acknowledge or changes things in order not to harm Palestinians?

We were also discussing facts vs opinions.

And also discussing if Israel owed anything to the Arabs, since the Jews were eventually expelled from most Arab countries only two years later. If both were equal and if they should be viewed in the same way.

I am not sure what the title should be.

Can anyone else help with the title for the next thread Coyote will be starting on the subject we were discussing?

Well Israel does acknowledge wrong doing at times, not at other times - my comments were all directed however at what posters HERE say...not what Israel says.