The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Hollie]

One religion building on another is not exactly new. What I have a problem with in terms of Muslims is when they want to claim it for Islam only, which they can't, but they are a sacred trust for 3 religions now.

What do you do?

1. You acknowledge the originating indigenous, aboriginal culture.
2. You remove yourself as much as possible from everything you have usurped.
3. You give the originating culture the space to honor their religion and worship as they need.
4. You ask permission of them to continue to use your holy spaces with mutual respect and dignity.

I disagree that it should be the one way street you seem to think it should and I think the uniqueness of this situation be recognized. I can’t think of any other situation where three very ancient religions, closely related, have strong ties to the same sacred areas and artifacts. It isn’t like some new found cult decided that the Cambodian Temp,es were part of their sacred landscape. The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties. However you might feel about the religions themselves, you can’t ignore this.

As a result it needs to be treated as a sacred space and the rights of all three respected, not demeaned by claims of usurption, over events more than a thousand years in the past. The people of today have every right to worship, peacefully and respectfully at their sacred places.

That said, I think guardianship of those places belongs with the indiginous culture, and they are responsible for insuring fair access to the site, respectful treatment of all worshippers, and maintaining the integrity of those places and setting appropriate rules. I don’t think either of the other religions should have to beg “permission” to visit their Holy Places any more than the Jews should have had to when it was under the control of others.


Mutual respect, dignity and peaceful conduct all around.

None of this is HARD for decent, moral human beings. The especial Holy Places do NOT actually encroach upon each other. There is no reason for Jews not to have the Temple Mount and the Kotel, the Christians to have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolarosa, and the Muslims to have Al-Aqsa. They do not actually encroach on each other. (Depending on where Jews decide the Holy of Holies is -- but Jews tend to be somewhat flexible (cough cough) in that way).

There is no actual conflict here. And you have the added advantage that the originating peoples -- the Jewish peoples -- have a theology that encourages worship by ALL of the nations. And a sovereign government which is willing to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to facilitate worship for other people.

This is win, win, win, win. If only the OTHER religions would just let it happen.

I agree

The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties.

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

You are a sad little Islamist. Obviously you are ignorant to the fact that Israel is preserving religious sites. That is quite at odds with the islamic practice of destroying religious sites.

You are wrong there as well. Those sites are still there.

I am not wrong. Islamics have a documented history of destroying religious sites. I provided examples earlier.

 

[Coyote]

What do you do?

1. You acknowledge the originating indigenous, aboriginal culture.
2. You remove yourself as much as possible from everything you have usurped.
3. You give the originating culture the space to honor their religion and worship as they need.
4. You ask permission of them to continue to use your holy spaces with mutual respect and dignity.

I disagree that it should be the one way street you seem to think it should and I think the uniqueness of this situation be recognized. I can’t think of any other situation where three very ancient religions, closely related, have strong ties to the same sacred areas and artifacts. It isn’t like some new found cult decided that the Cambodian Temp,es were part of their sacred landscape. The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties. However you might feel about the religions themselves, you can’t ignore this.

As a result it needs to be treated as a sacred space and the rights of all three respected, not demeaned by claims of usurption, over events more than a thousand years in the past. The people of today have every right to worship, peacefully and respectfully at their sacred places.

That said, I think guardianship of those places belongs with the indiginous culture, and they are responsible for insuring fair access to the site, respectful treatment of all worshippers, and maintaining the integrity of those places and setting appropriate rules. I don’t think either of the other religions should have to beg “permission” to visit their Holy Places any more than the Jews should have had to when it was under the control of others.


Mutual respect, dignity and peaceful conduct all around.

None of this is HARD for decent, moral human beings. The especial Holy Places do NOT actually encroach upon each other. There is no reason for Jews not to have the Temple Mount and the Kotel, the Christians to have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolarosa, and the Muslims to have Al-Aqsa. They do not actually encroach on each other. (Depending on where Jews decide the Holy of Holies is -- but Jews tend to be somewhat flexible (cough cough) in that way).

There is no actual conflict here. And you have the added advantage that the originating peoples -- the Jewish peoples -- have a theology that encourages worship by ALL of the nations. And a sovereign government which is willing to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to facilitate worship for other people.

This is win, win, win, win. If only the OTHER religions would just let it happen.

I agree

The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties.

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

You are a sad little Islamist. Obviously you are ignorant to the fact that Israel is preserving religious sites. That is quite at odds with the islamic practice of destroying religious sites.

You are wrong there as well. Those sites are still there.

I am not wrong. Islamics have a documented history of destroying religious sites. I provided examples earlier.

Yes they...as do Christians back in the day. On the other hand they have also conserved.

 

[Coyote]

A

One religion building on another is not exactly new. What I have a problem with in terms of Muslims is when they want to claim it for Islam only, which they can't, but they are a sacred trust for 3 religions now.

What do you do?

1. You acknowledge the originating indigenous, aboriginal culture.
2. You remove yourself as much as possible from everything you have usurped.
3. You give the originating culture the space to honor their religion and worship as they need.
4. You ask permission of them to continue to use your holy spaces with mutual respect and dignity.

I disagree that it should be the one way street you seem to think it should and I think the uniqueness of this situation be recognized. I can’t think of any other situation where three very ancient religions, closely related, have strong ties to the same sacred areas and artifacts. It isn’t like some new found cult decided that the Cambodian Temp,es were part of their sacred landscape. The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties. However you might feel about the religions themselves, you can’t ignore this.

As a result it needs to be treated as a sacred space and the rights of all three respected, not demeaned by claims of usurption, over events more than a thousand years in the past. The people of today have every right to worship, peacefully and respectfully at their sacred places.

That said, I think guardianship of those places belongs with the indiginous culture, and they are responsible for insuring fair access to the site, respectful treatment of all worshippers, and maintaining the integrity of those places and setting appropriate rules. I don’t think either of the other religions should have to beg “permission” to visit their Holy Places any more than the Jews should have had to when it was under the control of others.


Mutual respect, dignity and peaceful conduct all around.

None of this is HARD for decent, moral human beings. The especial Holy Places do NOT actually encroach upon each other. There is no reason for Jews not to have the Temple Mount and the Kotel, the Christians to have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolarosa, and the Muslims to have Al-Aqsa. They do not actually encroach on each other. (Depending on where Jews decide the Holy of Holies is -- but Jews tend to be somewhat flexible (cough cough) in that way).

There is no actual conflict here. And you have the added advantage that the originating peoples -- the Jewish peoples -- have a theology that encourages worship by ALL of the nations. And a sovereign government which is willing to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to facilitate worship for other people.

This is win, win, win, win. If only the OTHER religions would just let it happen.

I agree

The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties.

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

They aren’t, they are good respectful conservators of history, archaeology and religious rights.

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

 

[P F Tinmore]

A

What do you do?

1. You acknowledge the originating indigenous, aboriginal culture.
2. You remove yourself as much as possible from everything you have usurped.
3. You give the originating culture the space to honor their religion and worship as they need.
4. You ask permission of them to continue to use your holy spaces with mutual respect and dignity.

I disagree that it should be the one way street you seem to think it should and I think the uniqueness of this situation be recognized. I can’t think of any other situation where three very ancient religions, closely related, have strong ties to the same sacred areas and artifacts. It isn’t like some new found cult decided that the Cambodian Temp,es were part of their sacred landscape. The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties. However you might feel about the religions themselves, you can’t ignore this.

As a result it needs to be treated as a sacred space and the rights of all three respected, not demeaned by claims of usurption, over events more than a thousand years in the past. The people of today have every right to worship, peacefully and respectfully at their sacred places.

That said, I think guardianship of those places belongs with the indiginous culture, and they are responsible for insuring fair access to the site, respectful treatment of all worshippers, and maintaining the integrity of those places and setting appropriate rules. I don’t think either of the other religions should have to beg “permission” to visit their Holy Places any more than the Jews should have had to when it was under the control of others.


Mutual respect, dignity and peaceful conduct all around.

None of this is HARD for decent, moral human beings. The especial Holy Places do NOT actually encroach upon each other. There is no reason for Jews not to have the Temple Mount and the Kotel, the Christians to have the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Via Dolarosa, and the Muslims to have Al-Aqsa. They do not actually encroach on each other. (Depending on where Jews decide the Holy of Holies is -- but Jews tend to be somewhat flexible (cough cough) in that way).

There is no actual conflict here. And you have the added advantage that the originating peoples -- the Jewish peoples -- have a theology that encourages worship by ALL of the nations. And a sovereign government which is willing to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to facilitate worship for other people.

This is win, win, win, win. If only the OTHER religions would just let it happen.

I agree

The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties.

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

They aren’t, they are good respectful conservators of history, archaeology and religious rights.

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

OK, but how does that relate to my post?

 

[Coyote]

Illo

A

I disagree that it should be the one way street you seem to think it should and I think the uniqueness of this situation be recognized. I can’t think of any other situation where three very ancient religions, closely related, have strong ties to the same sacred areas and artifacts. It isn’t like some new found cult decided that the Cambodian Temp,es were part of their sacred landscape. The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties. However you might feel about the religions themselves, you can’t ignore this.

As a result it needs to be treated as a sacred space and the rights of all three respected, not demeaned by claims of usurption, over events more than a thousand years in the past. The people of today have every right to worship, peacefully and respectfully at their sacred places.

That said, I think guardianship of those places belongs with the indiginous culture, and they are responsible for insuring fair access to the site, respectful treatment of all worshippers, and maintaining the integrity of those places and setting appropriate rules. I don’t think either of the other religions should have to beg “permission” to visit their Holy Places any more than the Jews should have had to when it was under the control of others.


Mutual respect, dignity and peaceful conduct all around.


I agree

The Holy Land, which is probably the best term for this area, is important to all three that it has been the flashpoint of so much senseless violence as a result of religious ties.

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

They aren’t, they are good respectful conservators of history, archaeology and religious rights.

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

OK, but how does that relate to my post?

we we’re talking about the Holy Land and sacred sites weren’t we?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Illo

A

And it really saddens me that Israel is destroying it.

They aren’t, they are good respectful conservators of history, archaeology and religious rights.

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

OK, but how does that relate to my post?

we we’re talking about the Holy Land and sacred sites weren’t we?

Indeed, like Bethlehem that Israel has choked down to about nothing.

 

[rylah]

Illo

A
They aren’t, they are good respectful conservators of history, archaeology and religious rights.

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

OK, but how does that relate to my post?

we we’re talking about the Holy Land and sacred sites weren’t we?

Indeed, like Bethlehem that Israel has choked down to about nothing.

Pathetic blood libel,
Bethlehem is full of tourism, new villas, fancy cars.

If anything it's the Palestinian Arabs that managed to choke the Jewish presence in the city to nothing.
Not the other way around.

 

[rylah]

I don't see You refute anything of what I said.
Palestinian Arabs caused the most loss of property in this conflict.

While at home?

Yes while staring a war against Palestinian Jews and dispossessing them from the oldest communities, stripping them from property.

Palestinian Arabs are responsible for the most loss of property in this conflict.

Going right over your head, I see.

I still don't see any contradiction of my claim.
I think we'll talk about reparations when I return from prayer.

I think it’s only fair that the Islamist colonial project be held accountable for damages as a part of their invasion and dispossession of the Jewish people.

It's pathetic how quickly Arab demands of lost property disappear when they realize that it goes both ways.

 

[Slyhunter]

27 mortars fired at Israel from Gaza and you want them to lift the blockade. Why the fuck should Israel lift the blockade if you use the port to bring in more missiles to fire at her? Who is to blame if Israel fires back. What in the fuck do you think Israel should do that will successful stop the rocket attacks, napalm, carpet bombing, total eradication of all electric and water production, what will work. Only after the rockets have stopped can you bitch about the humanitarian needs of Gazans.

 

[Slyhunter]

oh shit.

PA threatens to cut security ties with Israel if Gaza blockade lifted
PA threatens to cut security ties with Israel if Gaza blockade lifted
Palestinians don't want the blockade lifted.

 

[admonit]

27 mortars fired at Israel from Gaza and you want them to lift the blockade. Why the fuck should Israel lift the blockade if you use the port to bring in more missiles to fire at her? Who is to blame if Israel fires back. What in the fuck do you think Israel should do that will successful stop the rocket attacks, napalm, carpet bombing, total eradication of all electric and water production, what will work. Only after the rockets have stopped can you bitch about the humanitarian needs of Gazans.

"The attack came as parents were beginning to send their children to school."
"One of the shells landed just outside an empty kindergarten"
Mortar shells strike southern Israel in largest volley since 2014; no injuries

These people understand only one language and I hope that Israel will react appropriately.

 

[Coyote]

While at home?

Yes while staring a war against Palestinian Jews and dispossessing them from the oldest communities, stripping them from property.

Palestinian Arabs are responsible for the most loss of property in this conflict.

Going right over your head, I see.

I still don't see any contradiction of my claim.
I think we'll talk about reparations when I return from prayer.

I think it’s only fair that the Islamist colonial project be held accountable for damages as a part of their invasion and dispossession of the Jewish people.

It's pathetic how quickly Arab demands of lost property disappear when they realize that it goes both ways.

Under who's control is the property that Jews lost? It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

Illo

With bulldozed buildings, ugly walls, cattle pens, and dispossessing Christians?

They have conserved religious and holy sites, conducted responsible archeology, and, unlike when under some other regimes, they allow access to the other religions. I think they deserve credit there don’t you?

OK, but how does that relate to my post?

we we’re talking about the Holy Land and sacred sites weren’t we?

Indeed, like Bethlehem that Israel has choked down to about nothing.

Pathetic blood libel,
Bethlehem is full of tourism, new villas, fancy cars.

If anything it's the Palestinian Arabs that managed to choke the Jewish presence in the city to nothing.
Not the other way around.

Actually alot of Christians have left Bethlahem, due to multiple reasons, not just Israel as implied. Important landmarks are in conservation trouble.

 

[rylah]

Yes while staring a war against Palestinian Jews and dispossessing them from the oldest communities, stripping them from property.

Palestinian Arabs are responsible for the most loss of property in this conflict.

Going right over your head, I see.

I still don't see any contradiction of my claim.
I think we'll talk about reparations when I return from prayer.

I think it’s only fair that the Islamist colonial project be held accountable for damages as a part of their invasion and dispossession of the Jewish people.

It's pathetic how quickly Arab demands of lost property disappear when they realize that it goes both ways.

Under who's control is the property that Jews lost? It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

First of all You can't exclude Jews from Palestinians and then claim that it's not an Arab-Jewish conflict.

The Arabs in Palestine themselves identified as members of the bigger Arab nation, be it when they called themselves Syrians or Egyptians and Saudis, and fought under a joint banner of Arab Muslim imperialism, but somehow the property of Jews lost in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq are out of the context?

In any balanced comparison- it weren't the Jews who caused the most of land and property loss in this conflict. It was a joint Arab effort to displace Jews from Israel and all of oldest Jewish communities in the middle east, Israel is the only place where Arabs didn't succeed.

 

[Shusha]

Here is an interesting article about the indigenous identity and the false seduction of genetic testing by Kim Tallbear. She is an anthropologist, of the Santee Dakota First Nation people.

I want to be careful with the argument that it’s culture versus biology; it’s also political authority versus biology. We have debates amongst ourselves about whether being Native American is about being a citizen of your tribe – a political designation – or about culture and traditional practice. I tend to come down on the side of political citizenship. It’s true that it’s about much more than blood – culture matters. But our political autonomy matters too, and that helps produce a space in which our cultural traditions can thrive....

I worry about the way Native American identity gets represented as this purely racial category by some of the companies marketing these tests. The story is so much more complicated than that....

There’s a great desire by many people in the US to feel like you belong to this land. I recently moved to Texas, and many of the white people I meet say: “I’ve got a Cherokee ancestor.” Lots of non-profit groups have also sprung up calling themselves Cherokee tribes, but they’re more like clubs – they don’t have tribal status in the way that federally recognised tribes do. It’s more like, “Do you identify yourself as Cherokee in your soul and your spirit?” That worries us in a land where we already feel there’s very little understanding about the history of our tribes, our relationships with colonial powers, and the conditions of our lives now.

 

[rylah]

It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

Arabs in Syria-Palestine were directly responsible for property loss and expulsion of ancient Jewish communities in the middle east. It was a coordinated effort by the Arabs to target any Jewish community in the middle east because they dared to demand freedom from Arab subjugation, on their ancestral land.



To suggest that the property lost by Arabs in a tiny sliver of land, is anywhere close to the amount lost by Jews in some 22 Arab countries due to the conflict initiated by Arabs- is disingenuous and pathetic.

This is no different than the Arab pogroms in Syria-Palestine before Zionism.

 

[Coyote]

It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

Arabs in Syria-Palestine were directly responsible for property loss and expulsion of ancient Jewish communities in the middle east. It was a coordinated effort by the Arabs to target any Jewish community in the middle east because they dared to own state for their own, on their ancestral land.



To suggest that the property lost by Arabs in a tiny sliver of land, is anywhere close to the amount lost by Jews in some 22 Arab countries due to the conflict initiated by Arabs- is disingenuous and pathetic.

This is no different than the Arab pogroms in Syria-Palestine before Zionism.

Again - it should not affect the compensation of confiscated property to the Palestinians. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, maybe they do these days. It's impossible to tell.

 

[Coyote]

Personally I think the Arab countries that expelled the Jews should issue, at least, a formal apology and make some movement towards a compensation or formal measure of some kind recognizing what they have done.

 

[rylah]

It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

Arabs in Syria-Palestine were directly responsible for property loss and expulsion of ancient Jewish communities in the middle east. It was a coordinated effort by the Arabs to target any Jewish community in the middle east because they dared to own state for their own, on their ancestral land.



To suggest that the property lost by Arabs in a tiny sliver of land, is anywhere close to the amount lost by Jews in some 22 Arab countries due to the conflict initiated by Arabs- is disingenuous and pathetic.

This is no different than the Arab pogroms in Syria-Palestine before Zionism.

Again - it should not affect the compensation of confiscated property to the Palestinians. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, maybe they do these days. It's impossible to tell.

Compensation to Arabs should not be affected by the losses they caused to Jews?
Maybe You still didn't get my point - You don't demand a penny when You owe me billions.

 

[Coyote]

It should not effect compensation or the return of confiscated property to Palestinians.

Arabs in Syria-Palestine were directly responsible for property loss and expulsion of ancient Jewish communities in the middle east. It was a coordinated effort by the Arabs to target any Jewish community in the middle east because they dared to own state for their own, on their ancestral land.



To suggest that the property lost by Arabs in a tiny sliver of land, is anywhere close to the amount lost by Jews in some 22 Arab countries due to the conflict initiated by Arabs- is disingenuous and pathetic.

This is no different than the Arab pogroms in Syria-Palestine before Zionism.

Again - it should not affect the compensation of confiscated property to the Palestinians. Two wrongs don't make a right. Or, maybe they do these days. It's impossible to tell.

Compensation to Arabs should not be affected by the losses they caused Jews?
Maybe You still didn't get my point - You don't demand a penny when You owe me billions.

Each of those people, who lost property did nothing to deserve it. They weren't the rulers. The Palestinians had no effect on what the Syrians chose to do to do to their Jewish communities, so why should they be punished for what Syria did? Same with the other countries. You put it all on the Palistinians heads and insist they pay the price? No.