The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Coyote]

....

I said, at the "least" because many of those people are no longer alive and I don't believe in monetary compensation to descendents (either Jewish or Palestinians). A formal apology and simple acknowledgement of wrong done can go a long ways. Including with the Palestinians.

Basically You've proven once more that the term 'Palestinian' was appropriated to refer only to Arabs, and to dissolve them from any responsibility in an all out coordinated war against Jews.

Arabs to this day continue with the demand of Jew free state in Judea,
and You demand an apology?!

For confiscated property, for expelling them from their villages, and for the laws that deliberately prevented them from reclaiming it, yes.

But damn, I keep forgetting - Israel can do no wrong!

That You have to reserve to such ridiculous strawman arguments only shows I've made my point clear.
Compared to 1400 years of Arab murder and theft, how Israel responded is drop in the bucket. That Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country, while there're actually more Arabs living in Jewish ancestral land today than ever before - just shows You who caused most of loss in the conflict, and who's aim it was from the beginning.

Using Your logic Spaniards owe restitutions to the Caliphate for liberating Spain.

There is no straw man argument being made. Israel deliberately expelled certain Palestinians then created laws to prevent them from returning. That is wrong. Just as wrong, just as wrong as when the Jews were forceably expelled. Any kind of peace agreement would have to some how address that wrong even if it is simple acknowledgement.

Frankly I have yet to see any admission that Israel ever does anything wrong from most Team Israel supporters. And to pretend that these Palestinians are owed anything or that no wrong was done by Israel in this case. Was it ok for Jews to be expelled? Of course not. Was it ok for Palestinians to be expelled? Apparently so. I am not talking about hundreds or thousands of years of events. I am talking about an event where those who were the victims are still alive.

It's easy for You not to talk about "hundreds of years of event", because You'll be put in an impossible position to demand anything from Israel. You're just looking for excuses to find relativity where there's none.

Let's just talk about the Arab Pogroms in Syria Palestine that moved Jews to organize Zionism, shall we?....Yeah even there it all started with Arabs dispossessing Jews of their ancient holy cities.

There're simply no proportions in which You can compare 1400 years of displacement and dissolve the Arabs for the responsibility of losses, on both sides.

1. What difference does what happened hundreds of years ago make in resolving today’s problems beyond imparting a greater understanding of what led to today? Those people are dead and those regimes are gone. These people are alive today. Israel is a regional power. No one can demand anything of Israel it does not CHOOSE to give. Going back and rehashing thousands of years of history as justification for today’s actions is a page right out of the Balkans playbook. Or I could say the Arab playbook since they too like to hold on to old angers.

2. Acknowledging that something wrong was done is not absolving the other of anything. Israel is established, it has stood long enough that it can now afford to examine some of the chapters in its own history without fear of crumbling into dust. If not now then when? Never? When Israel won its war it established and fiercely promoted its official narrative, a narrative that was not entirely true, as was shown when historians were finally allowed to examine old documents. One of those was why the Palestinians fled their villages. The official version was that Arab leaders told them to flee, they would slaughter the Jews, then they could return. When historical documents were examined that accounted for very few. Most fled either out of fear of the horrors of war or were forcibly expelled by Jewish militias. Then Israel created absentee landowner laws, which confiscated unclaimed property and at the same time refused to allow them back. The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

3. Look at the Palestinian claim of right of return. Where does that fit? If we approach it with your view of all historical wrongs count towards some final tally defining justice TODAY, then they and all their descendents have a right to return regardless of the fact that most have never set foot there and that right will continue to exist in a thousand years because we can’t possibly resolve any injustice without looking at the accumulated tally of rights and wrongs by each party back to the dawn of history.

 

[Sixties Fan]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

 

[rylah]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

I would basically agree with You, if You didn't put it as if it's all relative.
It's not - we have people with suicidal and genocidal intentions, who treat their own worse than their enemies, versus a civilized nation that has proven of it's peaceful intentions with the neighborhood.

 

[Sixties Fan]

....

Basically You've proven once more that the term 'Palestinian' was appropriated to refer only to Arabs, and to dissolve them from any responsibility in an all out coordinated war against Jews.

Arabs to this day continue with the demand of Jew free state in Judea,
and You demand an apology?!

For confiscated property, for expelling them from their villages, and for the laws that deliberately prevented them from reclaiming it, yes.

But damn, I keep forgetting - Israel can do no wrong!

That You have to reserve to such ridiculous strawman arguments only shows I've made my point clear.
Compared to 1400 years of Arab murder and theft, how Israel responded is drop in the bucket. That Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country, while there're actually more Arabs living in Jewish ancestral land today than ever before - just shows You who caused most of loss in the conflict, and who's aim it was from the beginning.

Using Your logic Spaniards owe restitutions to the Caliphate for liberating Spain.

There is no straw man argument being made. Israel deliberately expelled certain Palestinians then created laws to prevent them from returning. That is wrong. Just as wrong, just as wrong as when the Jews were forceably expelled. Any kind of peace agreement would have to some how address that wrong even if it is simple acknowledgement.

Frankly I have yet to see any admission that Israel ever does anything wrong from most Team Israel supporters. And to pretend that these Palestinians are owed anything or that no wrong was done by Israel in this case. Was it ok for Jews to be expelled? Of course not. Was it ok for Palestinians to be expelled? Apparently so. I am not talking about hundreds or thousands of years of events. I am talking about an event where those who were the victims are still alive.

It's easy for You not to talk about "hundreds of years of event", because You'll be put in an impossible position to demand anything from Israel. You're just looking for excuses to find relativity where there's none.

Let's just talk about the Arab Pogroms in Syria Palestine that moved Jews to organize Zionism, shall we?....Yeah even there it all started with Arabs dispossessing Jews of their ancient holy cities.

There're simply no proportions in which You can compare 1400 years of displacement and dissolve the Arabs for the responsibility of losses, on both sides.

1. What difference does what happened hundreds of years ago make in resolving today’s problems beyond imparting a greater understanding of what led to today? Those people are dead and those regimes are gone. These people are alive today. Israel is a regional power. No one can demand anything of Israel it does not CHOOSE to give. Going back and rehashing thousands of years of history as justification for today’s actions is a page right out of the Balkans playbook. Or I could say the Arab playbook since they too like to hold on to old angers.

2. Acknowledging that something wrong was done is not absolving the other of anything. Israel is established, it has stood long enough that it can now afford to examine some of the chapters in its own history without fear of crumbling into dust. If not now then when? Never? When Israel won its war it established and fiercely promoted its official narrative, a narrative that was not entirely true, as was shown when historians were finally allowed to examine old documents. One of those was why the Palestinians fled their villages. The official version was that Arab leaders told them to flee, they would slaughter the Jews, then they could return. When historical documents were examined that accounted for very few. Most fled either out of fear of the horrors of war or were forcibly expelled by Jewish militias. Then Israel created absentee landowner laws, which confiscated unclaimed property and at the same time refused to allow them back. The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

3. Look at the Palestinian claim of right of return. Where does that fit? If we approach it with your view of all historical wrongs count towards some final tally defining justice TODAY, then they and all their descendents have a right to return regardless of the fact that most have never set foot there and that right will continue to exist in a thousand years because we can’t possibly resolve any injustice without looking at the accumulated tally of rights and wrongs by each party back to the dawn of history.

What remains of the Palestinians who followed their leaders orders, or were expelled because they took arms against Israel, is very small. About 20,000 left.

What you may not be aware of is that Israel has already allowed many Arabs to return into Israel to reconnect with families which remained after 1948.

And many of those who were allowed to return have been found to attack Jews whenever they could.

And many Arabs who end up marrying Arab women who do live in Israel have been granted residence, some of them also have gone to murder Jews.

Are the Arabs throwing away the Quran and giving up on destroying Israel? No.

Most Arabs in Gaza believe in destroying Israel. Whether they are the ones who left or the next generations, truly does not matter.

As long as the Arabs continue to believe in, and educate every education that the only Good Jew is a dead one, or one who converted to Islam, there is nowhere to go from there .

And clearly, there are absolutely no Apologies from Israel which are required.

1400 years of the Quran teachings DO matter. You are not capable of seeing the connection between the first Muslim and what he did to the Jews then, and what his descendants which to do now.

 

[Coyote]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

 

[Coyote]

....
For confiscated property, for expelling them from their villages, and for the laws that deliberately prevented them from reclaiming it, yes.

But damn, I keep forgetting - Israel can do no wrong!

That You have to reserve to such ridiculous strawman arguments only shows I've made my point clear.
Compared to 1400 years of Arab murder and theft, how Israel responded is drop in the bucket. That Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country, while there're actually more Arabs living in Jewish ancestral land today than ever before - just shows You who caused most of loss in the conflict, and who's aim it was from the beginning.

Using Your logic Spaniards owe restitutions to the Caliphate for liberating Spain.

There is no straw man argument being made. Israel deliberately expelled certain Palestinians then created laws to prevent them from returning. That is wrong. Just as wrong, just as wrong as when the Jews were forceably expelled. Any kind of peace agreement would have to some how address that wrong even if it is simple acknowledgement.

Frankly I have yet to see any admission that Israel ever does anything wrong from most Team Israel supporters. And to pretend that these Palestinians are owed anything or that no wrong was done by Israel in this case. Was it ok for Jews to be expelled? Of course not. Was it ok for Palestinians to be expelled? Apparently so. I am not talking about hundreds or thousands of years of events. I am talking about an event where those who were the victims are still alive.

It's easy for You not to talk about "hundreds of years of event", because You'll be put in an impossible position to demand anything from Israel. You're just looking for excuses to find relativity where there's none.

Let's just talk about the Arab Pogroms in Syria Palestine that moved Jews to organize Zionism, shall we?....Yeah even there it all started with Arabs dispossessing Jews of their ancient holy cities.

There're simply no proportions in which You can compare 1400 years of displacement and dissolve the Arabs for the responsibility of losses, on both sides.

1. What difference does what happened hundreds of years ago make in resolving today’s problems beyond imparting a greater understanding of what led to today? Those people are dead and those regimes are gone. These people are alive today. Israel is a regional power. No one can demand anything of Israel it does not CHOOSE to give. Going back and rehashing thousands of years of history as justification for today’s actions is a page right out of the Balkans playbook. Or I could say the Arab playbook since they too like to hold on to old angers.

2. Acknowledging that something wrong was done is not absolving the other of anything. Israel is established, it has stood long enough that it can now afford to examine some of the chapters in its own history without fear of crumbling into dust. If not now then when? Never? When Israel won its war it established and fiercely promoted its official narrative, a narrative that was not entirely true, as was shown when historians were finally allowed to examine old documents. One of those was why the Palestinians fled their villages. The official version was that Arab leaders told them to flee, they would slaughter the Jews, then they could return. When historical documents were examined that accounted for very few. Most fled either out of fear of the horrors of war or were forcibly expelled by Jewish militias. Then Israel created absentee landowner laws, which confiscated unclaimed property and at the same time refused to allow them back. The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

3. Look at the Palestinian claim of right of return. Where does that fit? If we approach it with your view of all historical wrongs count towards some final tally defining justice TODAY, then they and all their descendents have a right to return regardless of the fact that most have never set foot there and that right will continue to exist in a thousand years because we can’t possibly resolve any injustice without looking at the accumulated tally of rights and wrongs by each party back to the dawn of history.

What remains of the Palestinians who followed their leaders orders, or were expelled because they took arms against Israel, is very small. About 20,000 left.

What you may not be aware of is that Israel has already allowed many Arabs to return into Israel to reconnect with families which remained after 1948.

And many of those who were allowed to return have been found to attack Jews whenever they could.

And many Arabs who end up marrying Arab women who do live in Israel have been granted residence, some of them also have gone to murder Jews.

Are the Arabs throwing away the Quran and giving up on destroying Israel? No.

Most Arabs in Gaza believe in destroying Israel. Whether they are the ones who left or the next generations, truly does not matter.

As long as the Arabs continue to believe in, and educate every education that the only Good Jew is a dead one, or one who converted to Islam, there is nowhere to go from there .

And clearly, there are absolutely no Apologies from Israel which are required.

1400 years of the Quran teachings DO matter. You are not capable of seeing the connection between the first Muslim and what he did to the Jews then, and what his descendants which to do now.

Should the Jews give up their holy book? Why on earth should the Arabs throw away theirs? Just bring it up to a modern day understanding. Like Jews have.

 

[Coyote]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

I would basically agree with You, if You didn't put it as if it's all relative.
It's not - we have people with suicidal and genocidal intentions, who treat their own worse than their enemies, versus a civilized nation that has proven of it's peaceful intentions with the neighborhood.

How is it that, as a civilized nation, you can’t acknowledge and remedy the wrongs? Aren’t you painting all the Palestinians with a broad brush?

 

[Sixties Fan]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

Keep reading mainly, if not only, Pro Palestinian sources and above will continue to be the only "truth" you will be allowed to understand.

And again, please......

Stop saying that Israel and its supporters believe that Israel Never Does Anything Wrong, because that also comes from the sites and pro Palestinian BDS aimed at Israel.

If you would care to spend anytime reading the Pro Israel sites, you just might realize that what you believe is not quite what you have led yourself to think.

I, and others, have given plenty of examples on how Israel constantly has helped any and all Arabs who seek education, health care and jobs, from Gaza or the PA territories in Judea and Samaria.

May you find anything which shows that the opposite occurs, from Arab governments in Gaza and the PA towards Israelis, especially Jews.

I try to read a variety of sites, and avoid strongly pro one or the other. Perhaps you should do the same. Or read pro Pali sites to balance your view.

I frequently acknowledge the good things they do, their right to defend themselves and protect their people from terrorism.

Why would I trust pro Israel sites any more than pro Pali sites?

If you want me to stop saying that it seems like Israel can do no wrong than acknowledge wrong doing sometimes e instead of automatically defending everything.

Israel usually acknowledges things it has done wrong.

Now, if the things you want Israel to acknowledge as doing wrong are NOT things it did wrong, but mere allegations from the Arab Palestinian side, than definitely Israel is NOT going to acknowledge anything it did not do wrong.

Do you have a few examples of what you think Israel has not admitted doing wrong in the past 5 to ten years?

 

[Sixties Fan]

That You have to reserve to such ridiculous strawman arguments only shows I've made my point clear.
Compared to 1400 years of Arab murder and theft, how Israel responded is drop in the bucket. That Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country, while there're actually more Arabs living in Jewish ancestral land today than ever before - just shows You who caused most of loss in the conflict, and who's aim it was from the beginning.

Using Your logic Spaniards owe restitutions to the Caliphate for liberating Spain.

There is no straw man argument being made. Israel deliberately expelled certain Palestinians then created laws to prevent them from returning. That is wrong. Just as wrong, just as wrong as when the Jews were forceably expelled. Any kind of peace agreement would have to some how address that wrong even if it is simple acknowledgement.

Frankly I have yet to see any admission that Israel ever does anything wrong from most Team Israel supporters. And to pretend that these Palestinians are owed anything or that no wrong was done by Israel in this case. Was it ok for Jews to be expelled? Of course not. Was it ok for Palestinians to be expelled? Apparently so. I am not talking about hundreds or thousands of years of events. I am talking about an event where those who were the victims are still alive.

It's easy for You not to talk about "hundreds of years of event", because You'll be put in an impossible position to demand anything from Israel. You're just looking for excuses to find relativity where there's none.

Let's just talk about the Arab Pogroms in Syria Palestine that moved Jews to organize Zionism, shall we?....Yeah even there it all started with Arabs dispossessing Jews of their ancient holy cities.

There're simply no proportions in which You can compare 1400 years of displacement and dissolve the Arabs for the responsibility of losses, on both sides.

1. What difference does what happened hundreds of years ago make in resolving today’s problems beyond imparting a greater understanding of what led to today? Those people are dead and those regimes are gone. These people are alive today. Israel is a regional power. No one can demand anything of Israel it does not CHOOSE to give. Going back and rehashing thousands of years of history as justification for today’s actions is a page right out of the Balkans playbook. Or I could say the Arab playbook since they too like to hold on to old angers.

2. Acknowledging that something wrong was done is not absolving the other of anything. Israel is established, it has stood long enough that it can now afford to examine some of the chapters in its own history without fear of crumbling into dust. If not now then when? Never? When Israel won its war it established and fiercely promoted its official narrative, a narrative that was not entirely true, as was shown when historians were finally allowed to examine old documents. One of those was why the Palestinians fled their villages. The official version was that Arab leaders told them to flee, they would slaughter the Jews, then they could return. When historical documents were examined that accounted for very few. Most fled either out of fear of the horrors of war or were forcibly expelled by Jewish militias. Then Israel created absentee landowner laws, which confiscated unclaimed property and at the same time refused to allow them back. The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

3. Look at the Palestinian claim of right of return. Where does that fit? If we approach it with your view of all historical wrongs count towards some final tally defining justice TODAY, then they and all their descendents have a right to return regardless of the fact that most have never set foot there and that right will continue to exist in a thousand years because we can’t possibly resolve any injustice without looking at the accumulated tally of rights and wrongs by each party back to the dawn of history.

What remains of the Palestinians who followed their leaders orders, or were expelled because they took arms against Israel, is very small. About 20,000 left.

What you may not be aware of is that Israel has already allowed many Arabs to return into Israel to reconnect with families which remained after 1948.

And many of those who were allowed to return have been found to attack Jews whenever they could.

And many Arabs who end up marrying Arab women who do live in Israel have been granted residence, some of them also have gone to murder Jews.

Are the Arabs throwing away the Quran and giving up on destroying Israel? No.

Most Arabs in Gaza believe in destroying Israel. Whether they are the ones who left or the next generations, truly does not matter.

As long as the Arabs continue to believe in, and educate every education that the only Good Jew is a dead one, or one who converted to Islam, there is nowhere to go from there .

And clearly, there are absolutely no Apologies from Israel which are required.

1400 years of the Quran teachings DO matter. You are not capable of seeing the connection between the first Muslim and what he did to the Jews then, and what his descendants which to do now.

Should the Jews give up their holy book? Why on earth should the Arabs throw away theirs? Just bring it up to a modern day understanding. Like Jews have.

I did not say to throw it out, but it is difficult to change an ideology which is called Submission (Islam).

And many Muslims would like to see it happen, but where to start when they do not have the power and Islam continues to be geared towards making the Jews their servants.

Which is not what the Torah is about, at all.

That is the difference.

 

[Sixties Fan]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

I would basically agree with You, if You didn't put it as if it's all relative.
It's not - we have people with suicidal and genocidal intentions, who treat their own worse than their enemies, versus a civilized nation that has proven of it's peaceful intentions with the neighborhood.

How is it that, as a civilized nation, you can’t acknowledge and remedy the wrongs? Aren’t you painting all the Palestinians with a broad brush?

What are those wrongs you keep talking about?

Give us a list.

 

[rylah]

1. What difference does what happened hundreds of years ago make in resolving today’s problems beyond imparting a greater understanding of what led to today? Those people are dead and those regimes are gone. These people are alive today. Israel is a regional power. No one can demand anything of Israel it does not CHOOSE to give. Going back and rehashing thousands of years of history as justification for today’s actions is a page right out of the Balkans playbook. Or I could say the Arab playbook since they too like to hold on to old angers.

I suggested we talk about the Pogroms in Syria-Palestine that pushed Jews to organize Zionism.
Those happened just 40 years prior to the 1st Zionist immigration.

Though it's pretty telling how in a thread about indigenous people, we're limited by a time line of merely 3-5 generations. If Arabs didn't have to hide their origins, or deflect from the Jewish ones in comparison - we'd be talking freely.

2. Acknowledging that something wrong was done is not absolving the other of anything. Israel is established, it has stood long enough that it can now afford to examine some of the chapters in its own history without fear of crumbling into dust. If not now then when? Never? When Israel won its war it established and fiercely promoted its official narrative, a narrative that was not entirely true, as was shown when historians were finally allowed to examine old documents. One of those was why the Palestinians fled their villages. The official version was that Arab leaders told them to flee, they would slaughter the Jews, then they could return. When historical documents were examined that accounted for very few. Most fled either out of fear of the horrors of war or were forcibly expelled by Jewish militias. Then Israel created absentee landowner laws, which confiscated unclaimed property and at the same time refused to allow them back. The bar for Palestinians to reclaim property was set very high and the bar for Jews to reclaim property much lower.

Again, a drop in the bucket compared to the losses cause by Arabs to both sides.
You'll of course prefer to stay in the beginning of the 20th century where the Arab narrative is all worked out, where it's convenient to put out a sad kitten face and claim victim-hood in a war they initiated.

3. Look at the Palestinian claim of right of return. Where does that fit? If we approach it with your view of all historical wrongs count towards some final tally defining justice TODAY, then they and all their descendents have a right to return regardless of the fact that most have never set foot there and that right will continue to exist in a thousand years because we can’t possibly resolve any injustice without looking at the accumulated tally of rights and wrongs by each party back to the dawn of history.

If we approach it from my view, they have no right to anything in Israel, they can ask, Israel can allow and it will be a great generosity. You still don't get that as a result of a war Arabs fought against the Jews - we've lost our ancestral lands to Syria, Jordan and Lebanon...it's all traditionally Israel and we've been living there long before Arab Muslim conquests. On the top of it we've lost BILLIONS in property all around the middle east. What did Arabs in Syria -Palestine loose - a couple of swamp dunes and mud houses in a piece of land barely seen on the map?.What did they get, Jew free countries 10 times bigger and all the Jewish property?


I'll give You the one for typical Israeli chutzpah, that You have is for sure.
But You're out of any measurable proportions in this.

 

[rylah]

,,,,

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Coyote, et al,

It is all connected. It is a cascade of event that has not reached its end.

I'm talking really, about a particular group of Palestinians. You don't think even an apology or acknowledgement that what was done (absentee property laws) is acceptable? That what Israel did in that case was fine? I honestly get the feeling folks feel Israel does no wrong and can not be held accountable for anything because of - but but the Palestinians!

What does this have to do with Israel surrendering its sovereignty? I don't understand what you mean. If the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide are they surrendering their sovereignty?

(COMMENT)

The time is not right, and the people are not mentally set to address each other.

There is no question, that given the amount of anguish, suffering, injury and damage the Arab Palestinian has inflicted upon the Israelis, → if the world were still using the WWI standards and rules of engagement, the Israelis would pound the remaining Arab Palestinians into oblivion.

Between 1920 and 1916, the Arab Palestinian terrorist has inflicted over 3,700 deaths to the Israelis. "During the six years of the first uprising (Dec. 9, 1987 to Sep. 9, 1993), 200 people were murdered. More than 1,000 Israelis were killed during the Palestinian War (September 2000-September 2005)."
Sources: Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Terrorism Deaths in Israel; In Memory of the Victims of Palestinian Terror); Jerusalem Post, (January 4, 2009)

If the United States had been the victim of Palestinian Terrorism on this scale, the source of these attacks (West Bank and Gaza Strip) would probably have been introduced to a level of destruction equivalent to Tora Bora (Customary and IHL not-with-standing). It is not the apology (admission of wrong doing), but they do not trust the Arab Palestinian until such time as the Hostile Arab Palestinian becomes neutralized and out of the frame. But no one believes that the Arab Palestinians will accept an apology and move-on. What will happen (as near to a sure thing as anything on the planet) is that any official statement of that type will be taken and amplified for propaganda purposes, and to hold Israel criminally and civilly liable; while at the same time, absolving the terrorism and war crimes the Arab Palestinians have inflicted upon the Israels. Hell, the Palestinian attack on the Olympic Village in Munich is enough to villainy to prosecute the Palestinian Leadership and their successor villains. And the recently immortalized terrorist Dalal al-Mughrabi for machine-gunning a bus of unarmed passengers, including 12 children and call it heroic, is justified.

Israel, is focused on sovereignty. And they will not take any level of risk that might endanger their sovereignty. There is no way that the Arab Palestinians will own-up to the terrorism they have committed, on the grounds that they see it as justified. What position do you think the Israelis will take.

Israel did what it had to do to insure its survival and sovereignty. That single cause is justified every single day that the Hostile Arab Palestinians instigate a violent event and call it justified.

If I sound a little harsh here, it is not directed at you. But I find that kindness and understanding of some people who believe that the Palestinians are so heroic and fighting for a just cause, that the Palestinians (95% of the Arab Palestinians prowling the border fence never lived in Israel, let alone had Israel take something from them) are justified in any war crime, terrorist act or just plain criminal activity. If you have ever felt the heat of a suicide bomb or the shock and shaking of a car explode in front of you, --- you will then know what it is to be afraid of these poor downtrodden Palestinians that want to push their way inside of Israel to kill as many Israelis as the can.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will add that there is also no question of the amount of anguish and suffering the Israelis have inflicted such as the use of white phosphorous in dense urban areas, the treatment of juveniles when arrested or in the military justice system. The way settlers are allowed to attack Palestinians but if Palestinians throw stones the get arrested. It IS a two way street and ACKNOWLEDGING that Israel has done some wrong things is not absolving the Palestinians of any of their actions. It is recognizing that underneath all this are people, who do have rights and legitimate wrongs should be recognized.

I would basically agree with You, if You didn't put it as if it's all relative.
It's not - we have people with suicidal and genocidal intentions, who treat their own worse than their enemies, versus a civilized nation that has proven of it's peaceful intentions with the neighborhood.

How is it that, as a civilized nation, you can’t acknowledge and remedy the wrongs? Aren’t you painting all the Palestinians with a broad brush?

Good luck demanding an apology from an ant who bit an elephant's ass.
How can I be the one painting it with a broad brush when for You Palestinian means exclusively Arabs, just can't have it both ways - pointing to an Arab-Jewish war suggesting that a tiny state holds the same responsibility as 7 bigger Arab ones that initiated the whole war.

That's just out of any possible proportions that can allow agreement.
And we both know why You go demanding it from me and not the Arabs, Israel is the only side with whom conversation is possible - but don't mistake it for an invitation to shift the wight on our account and "ride on our backs".

 

[Shusha]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Define "indigenous?"

Prior to the 4th Century AD the inhabitants of the Middle East were very different. Greeks, Medes, Persians, Hittites. All white European like peoples. A great drought in Africa dried major parts of the Mediterranean providing a path from North Africa into the Middle East, the migration of the Arabs.

The North Africans engaged in pretty much total genocide of the indigenous populations, who were sparse and weak from a thousand years of fighting each other.Even before Muhammad, the Arabs were invaders and a conquering force.

There is not, nor has there ever been, a nation called Palestine. The Arab Invaders conquered the holy lands in the 8th century AD. Prior to that the Hebrews were the inhabitants.

 

[Shusha]

Indigenous means native. Originally or occurring naturally in a particular place. Palestinian-Arabs are just as indigenous as Palestinian-Jews.

Indigeneity describes a culture, not individuals. The culture of the Palestinian Arab peoples originated (occurred naturally) in another place. It did not occur naturally in Israel, Judea and Samaria -- it was brought there through invasion and conquest and migration. And it over-took the local, naturally occurring, indigenous culture. (But that indigenous culture survived both inside Israel and outside Israel).

It is the same in the Americas. The descendants of European colonizers to the Americas are NOT indigenous to the Americas. They have a foreign culture which was transplanted from another place (where they ARE indigenous). It doesn't matter how many generations go by -- the European culture did not originate in the Americas. Those who practice the European culture are not indigenous to the Americas. That does not in any way limit or eliminate European rights in America, but it DOES give rights to sovereignty to the First Nations peoples of the Americas.

This is not especially difficult to understand. And it does not in any way limit or eliminate Palestinian Arab rights.

 

[Shusha]

That's not as ridiculous as saying that's your land because God told you so!

Actually, most indigenous cultures have a strong spiritual connection to a particular land which is reflected in their religious faith and theology.

Not just the Jewish peoples but nearly every North American First Nations People, the Irish, Korea. Those are just a few examples I am personally familiar with. Its actually so common as to be part of the UN definition of "indigenous".

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

What is a "Palestinian?" Is that like a Unicorn?

The Arabs did not originate in the Middle East and migrated about 1600 years back.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

What is a "Palestinian?" Is that like a Unicorn?

The Arabs did not originate in the Middle East and migrated about 1600 years back.

Two corrections:

1) T one precise, the Arab Muslims came during the 630s on to invade all outside Arabia.

2) That makes it about 1400 years, and not 1600 as in your last post. And they did not migrate, at first. They invaded. Once they had the land, as with the Europeans with Australia, the Americas, etc, then one can say that they immigrated or migrated.

And still, they would like to say that they are indigenous from anywhere and everywhere they now live.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You are too fucking funny, Rocco. Where do you get this shit?

See? You've most eloquently proven Rocco's point -- the Arab Palestinians (and their team of useful idiots) entirely dismissing Israeli (Jewish) suffering as though it does not exist.

It was Rocco's usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Israel will attack Palestinians daily and kill them by the thousands but will piss and moan about one Israel getting attacked. The one attack may be true but the presentation is out of the park.

And besides, it is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.

What is a "Palestinian?" Is that like a Unicorn?

The Arabs did not originate in the Middle East and migrated about 1600 years back.

Two corrections:

1) T one precise, the Arab Muslims came during the 630s on to invade all outside Arabia.

2) That makes it about 1400 years, and not 1600 as in your last post. And they did not migrate, at first. They invaded. Once they had the land, as with the Europeans with Australia, the Americas, etc, then one can say that they immigrated or migrated.

And still, they would like to say that they are indigenous from anywhere and everywhere they now live.

The Arabs predate Islam. They came from North Africa to the Middle East in the late 3rd, early 4th century.

Pre-Islamic Arabia - Wikipedia

The Africans pushed into Phoenicia first and instituted complete genocide. They then pushed East and South until the region was entirely under Arab control. They did not take Persia at that time as the Persians repelled them through force of arms..