What do normal people, think of the Palestinians?

[SAYIT]

Really? Could you post a link to those UN "historical records?"

Okay.

"... We wish to point out here that the Jewish population of Palestine who lived there before the War never had any trouble with their Arab neighbours. They enjoyed the same rights and privileges as their fellow Ottoman citizens, and never agitated for the Declaration of November 1917. It is the Zionists outside Palestine who worked for the Balfour Declaration ...
- Winston Churchill

Back to you, camel butt!

Certainly when compared to Europe's treatment of her Jews, the Arabs of that time seem tolerant but it's just a matter of degree. Take the case of the Egyptian-Ottoman War (1831-1833). You will learn that the region's Jews were killied, expelled, enslaved and/or forced to convert to Islam. Additionally the Bedouins regularly attacked the villages and killed, expelled or enslaved the inhabitants.
Clearly WW1 spelled the end of the relatively calm relations but the existence of Jews did not instigate the Arab violence but rather the end of Ottoman rule and the rise of nationalist movements all over the Mideast did. You are barking up the wrong tree ... again.

 

[RoccoR]

Roudy, Billo_Really, et al,

I think we need to move forward a bit. It serves no useful purpose to dwell on events of six, seven, eight and nine decades ago, during a period of hostile evolution. These events cannot be changes. And the association between the factors that can solve todays issue are very remote to the pol-mil conditions of these distant periods. What we see historically in the Palestinian Black Hand or the Irgun has little impact on the potential for solutions to the evolved situation of today.

There is always a recognized authority. Most times the person just has to look for it.

Then who was the recognized authority you are referring to?

Irgun? Their a Jewish terrorist group.

Irgun was a militia created after the Hebron massacre to protect Jewish communities.

You see how it all began when Arab IslamoNazi animals decided to slaughter Jews and get away with it?

(COMMENT)

Either each side wants to solve the never ending battle between the cultures, or, then don't.

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinian wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances. I don't think the leadership of the Palestinian people want a better life for their people. And I don't believe the people of the State of Palestine have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity. They have been fighting for so long that they are a new species in a culture that does not know any other way.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Challenger]

Roudy, Billo_Really, et al,

I think we need to move forward a bit. It serves no useful purpose to dwell on events of six, seven, eight and nine decades ago, during a period of hostile evolution. These events cannot be changes. And the association between the factors that can solve todays issue are very remote to the pol-mil conditions of these distant periods. What we see historically in the Palestinian Black Hand or the Irgun has little impact on the potential for solutions to the evolved situation of today.

There is always a recognized authority. Most times the person just has to look for it.

Then who was the recognized authority you are referring to?

Irgun? Their a Jewish terrorist group.

Irgun was a militia created after the Hebron massacre to protect Jewish communities.

You see how it all began when Arab IslamoNazi animals decided to slaughter Jews and get away with it?

(COMMENT)

Either each side wants to solve the never ending battle between the cultures, or, then don't.

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinian wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances. I don't think the leadership of the Palestinian people want a better life for their people. And I don't believe the people of the State of Palestine have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity. They have been fighting for so long that they are a new species in a culture that does not know any other way.

Most Respectfully,
R

This demonstrates quite clearly you have never met or spoken to a Palestinian in your life.

 

[RoccoR]

Challenger, et al,

Of course, my personal experiences are a bit dated.

Roudy, Billo_Really, et al,

I think we need to move forward a bit. It serves no useful purpose to dwell on events of six, seven, eight and nine decades ago, during a period of hostile evolution. These events cannot be changes. And the association between the factors that can solve todays issue are very remote to the pol-mil conditions of these distant periods. What we see historically in the Palestinian Black Hand or the Irgun has little impact on the potential for solutions to the evolved situation of today.

There is always a recognized authority. Most times the person just has to look for it.

Then who was the recognized authority you are referring to?

Irgun? Their a Jewish terrorist group.

Irgun was a militia created after the Hebron massacre to protect Jewish communities.

You see how it all began when Arab IslamoNazi animals decided to slaughter Jews and get away with it?

(COMMENT)

Either each side wants to solve the never ending battle between the cultures, or, then don't.

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinian wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances. I don't think the leadership of the Palestinian people want a better life for their people. And I don't believe the people of the State of Palestine have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity. They have been fighting for so long that they are a new species in a culture that does not know any other way.

Most Respectfully,
R

This demonstrates quite clearly you have never met or spoken to a Palestinian in your life.

(COMMENT)

This would be quite wrong. But it is interesting that you challenge the ideas that:

• Arab Palestinian DOES NOT wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances.
• Arab Palestinian leadership of the Palestinian people DOES NOT want a better life for their people.
• The Arab Palestinian people DO NOT have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity.

I wonder just what you see in the most recent past (contemporary history), that suggests:

• The Arab Palestinian working for better political, economic and social changes and scientific progress.
• The Arab Palestinian working to settle their disputes by peaceful means.
• The Arab Palestinian working towards the maintenance of regional peace and security.

I wonder just what you see in the Political platform of the Arab Palestinian that suggests they are working to establish a stable and uncontested government to build a thriving nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ChrisL]

Challenger, et al,

Of course, my personal experiences are a bit dated.

Roudy, Billo_Really, et al,

I think we need to move forward a bit. It serves no useful purpose to dwell on events of six, seven, eight and nine decades ago, during a period of hostile evolution. These events cannot be changes. And the association between the factors that can solve todays issue are very remote to the pol-mil conditions of these distant periods. What we see historically in the Palestinian Black Hand or the Irgun has little impact on the potential for solutions to the evolved situation of today.

There is always a recognized authority. Most times the person just has to look for it.

Then who was the recognized authority you are referring to?

Irgun? Their a Jewish terrorist group.

Irgun was a militia created after the Hebron massacre to protect Jewish communities.

You see how it all began when Arab IslamoNazi animals decided to slaughter Jews and get away with it?

(COMMENT)

Either each side wants to solve the never ending battle between the cultures, or, then don't.

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinian wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances. I don't think the leadership of the Palestinian people want a better life for their people. And I don't believe the people of the State of Palestine have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity. They have been fighting for so long that they are a new species in a culture that does not know any other way.

Most Respectfully,
R

This demonstrates quite clearly you have never met or spoken to a Palestinian in your life.

(COMMENT)

This would be quite wrong. But it is interesting that you challenge the ideas that:

• Arab Palestinian DOES NOT wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances.
• Arab Palestinian leadership of the Palestinian people DOES NOT want a better life for their people.
• The Arab Palestinian people DO NOT have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity.

I wonder just what you see in the most recent past (contemporary history), that suggests:

• The Arab Palestinian working for better political, economic and social changes and scientific progress.
• The Arab Palestinian working to settle their disputes by peaceful means.
• The Arab Palestinian working towards the maintenance of regional peace and security.

I wonder just what you see in the Political platform of the Arab Palestinian that suggests they are working to establish a stable and uncontested government to build a thriving nation.

Most Respectfully,
R

I wonder that too. Very much so. It will be interesting to see what kind of answers, if any, that you get, because I see no evidence that Palestine wants peace.

 

[cnm]

The headline is misleading, the article incredibly lame and CNM is a liar. Go figure.

Why is Israel selling Palestine's gas? Has Palestine ceded the gas to Israel? If not, Palestinians' natural gas is being stolen by Israel, as normal people think.

 

[cnm]

Anyway, where were we? Right, it was 'what do normal people think of the Palestinians?' Well, normal people think Palestinians are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Refusal to grant travel documents traps family in Gaza for 10 years

http://www.unrwa.org

in direct violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that “Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

So normal people think Palestinians

live under apartheid regimes,
have their opinions suppressed,
live under military rule in occupied territories,
have their land and property appropriated by Israel,
are cast as uncaring,
have their misfortunes laughed at by Israel,
still hold the keys and deeds to property other people are living in,
will have their off shore gas stolen by Israel,
are the focus of Israeli efforts to keep them as Untermensch,
are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

 

[Hossfly]

Anyway, where were we? Right, it was 'what do normal people think of the Palestinians?' Well, normal people think Palestinians are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Refusal to grant travel documents traps family in Gaza for 10 years

http://www.unrwa.org

in direct violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that “Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

So normal people think Palestinians

live under apartheid regimes,
have their opinions suppressed,
live under military rule in occupied territories,
have their land and property appropriated by Israel,
are cast as uncaring,
have their misfortunes laughed at by Israel,
still hold the keys and deeds to property other people are living in,
will have their off shore gas stolen by Israel,
are the focus of Israeli efforts to keep them as Untermensch,
are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Add this to your list of what normal people think. .


12. Palestine does not want peace.

 

[cnm]

I wonder just what you see in the Political platform of the Arab Palestinian that suggests they are working to establish a stable and uncontested government to build a thriving nation.

Normal people see Palestinians make concessions to Israel, upon which the goal posts are moved by Israel.

So normal people think Palestinians

live under apartheid regimes,
have their opinions suppressed,
live under military rule in occupied territories,
have their land and property appropriated by Israel,
are cast as uncaring,
have their misfortunes laughed at by Israel,
still hold the keys and deeds to property other people are living in,
will have their off shore gas stolen by Israel,
are the focus of Israeli efforts to keep them as Untermensch,
are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents,
have the goal posts moved when concessions are made to Israel.

 

[Daniyel]

I wonder just what you see in the Political platform of the Arab Palestinian that suggests they are working to establish a stable and uncontested government to build a thriving nation.

Normal people see Palestinians make concessions to Israel, upon which the goal posts are moved by Israel.

So normal people think Palestinians

live under apartheid regimes,
have their opinions suppressed,
live under military rule in occupied territories,
have their land and property appropriated by Israel,
are cast as uncaring,
have their misfortunes laughed at by Israel,
still hold the keys and deeds to property other people are living in,
will have their off shore gas stolen by Israel,
are the focus of Israeli efforts to keep them as Untermensch,
are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents,
have the goal posts moved when concessions are made to Israel.

You seem to know fairly enough, can you elaborate on each and every point you made?
For example:
1.live under apartheid regimes - The Palestinians of Gaza/WB?
Where is the specific line determining apartheid?
Since when?
Which laws are completely unjustified, and which are partly justified, discussing the outcome.

I Know its gonna take a little while but I'll be glad discussing those in a new thread, each and every one, take your time.

 

[Alex.]

There is always a recognized authority. Most times the person just has to look for it.

Ah. As a matter of curiosity, who/what was the recognised authority in the case referred to?

Palestine has sought and received assistance from the UN, Iran and Russia to name a few yet they still resort to terrorism.

 

[SAYIT]

The headline is misleading, the article incredibly lame and CNM is a liar. Go figure.

Why is Israel selling Palestine's gas? Has Palestine ceded the gas to Israel? If not, Palestinians' natural gas is being stolen by Israel, as normal people think.

In order for normal people to believe that, they would have to be as ignorant as you (and I believe that to be impossible).
Israel neither extracts nor sells anyone's gas.
The article you posted - authored by someone named Nafeez Ahmed - not only does not support your contention but also fails miserably to support Ahmed's conclusions. Please read the camel crap you post before posting it. Thank you. Sheesh.

 

[SAYIT]

Anyway, where were we? Right, it was 'what do normal people think of the Palestinians?' Well, normal people think Palestinians are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Refusal to grant travel documents traps family in Gaza for 10 years

http://www.unrwa.org

in direct violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that “Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

So normal people think Palestinians

live under apartheid regimes,
have their opinions suppressed,
live under military rule in occupied territories,
have their land and property appropriated by Israel,
are cast as uncaring,
have their misfortunes laughed at by Israel,
still hold the keys and deeds to property other people are living in,
will have their off shore gas stolen by Israel,
are the focus of Israeli efforts to keep them as Untermensch,
are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Why won't Egypt allow their Pali brethren to come and go and why would UNRWA publish such an obvious piece of misleading camel fluff? It seems, to normal peeps, that UNRWA has become waaay more than a nanny to those hapless "refugees."

The U.N. Handmaiden of Hamas Foundation for Defense of Democracies

 

[RoccoR]

cnm, et al,

This is a complete distortion of the facts. There are two issues here.

• The entry and exit of a person at a border crossing point.
• The issue of travel documents.

Anyway, where were we? Right, it was 'what do normal people think of the Palestinians?' Well, normal people think Palestinians are restricted in movement by the refusal of the occupying power to issue appropriate travel documents.

Refusal to grant travel documents traps family in Gaza for 10 years

http://www.unrwa.org

in direct violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that “Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

(OBSERVATION AND REFERENCE)

Yes, it says:

Article 13

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.​

Article 15.

• 
  (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
  
  (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

SOURCE: A/RES/3/217 A Universal Declaration of Human Rights

(COMMENT)

You will note that it does not say, that "Everyone has the right to ENTER any country." Every border crossing point has two sides to it. You exit one country and you enter another country. Israel is NOT denying the exit of "Mona" out of Palestine (the State of since 1988), merely denying entry into sovereign Israeli territory.

They are caught in a complicated conflict of identification and denied their right to citizenship: Egypt cannot re-issue the Khrais family’s expired travel documents, which are only given to Palestinians living outside of Palestine. However, the family cannot apply for travel documents from the Palestinian Authority, as Israel denies them official Palestinian identification. “Everyone has the right to a nationality”, states Article 15 of the UDHR. By denying identification to Palestinians who lack second citizenship, the Israeli authorities also violate the human right to nationality.
SOURCE: Refusal to grant travel documents traps family in Gaza for 10 years UNRWA​

This is NOT a case of Israel arbitrarily depriving "Mona" of her nationality. She is a citizen of the State of Palestine, inside the State of Palestine. Each State has inherent responsibilities; Israel has no authority to issue "official Palestinian identification" because they are not representatives of the Palestinian Government. The "State of Palestine" must issue the relevant travel documents. (The US issues Passports to US Citizens, it doesn't issue Canadian Passports. Vice Versa The Canada issues Passports to Canadian Citizens, it doesn't issue US Passports.) The travel documents are issued by the country to which you are a citizen. If Palestine (the State of) and HAMAS (the Government of the State of Palestine) were credible, they would be able to issue the appropriate travel documents.

THEN, you need to get a "visa." A visa is a document from the country you want to visit giving you permission to enter. You must obtain a visa from the embassy or consulate of the country you are seeking to visit. Each country has its own specific visa requirements. Israel, Egypt, Jordan, etc, etc, etc, is under no obligation to allow entry based on Palestinian travel documents. When I traveled the Middle East, I received my visa by taking my Passport to the appropriate consulate here in the US. They stamped the visa inside my Passport. There have been occasions when a bought a visa at a control point and customs/immigration station.

I assume that since the Pro-Palestinians contingent, here in this forum (USMB), are so familiar with the area, that they would know all about this. And since they claim that HAMAS and the State of Palestine are so highly thought of in the world, that they would know how to get a Palestinian Passport and where all the foreign consulates are in Gaza and the West Bank.

But, in this case, I don't see the wrong doing being done by Israel. If "Mona" cannot find a Passport Office in Gaza, maybe someone here could help her.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[cnm]

For example:
1.live under apartheid regimes - The Palestinians of Gaza/WB?
Where is the specific line determining apartheid?
Since when?
Which laws are completely unjustified, and which are partly justified, discussing the outcome.

Let the writer from Haaretz speak for me here.

Yes, it is apartheid

http://www.haaretz.com

Let's let old Carter be, so he may let sleeping warriors lie; he will not be back. The contents of his words, however, should not be ignored. "Apartheid," he said, "apartheid" - a dark, scary word coined by Afrikaners and meaning segregation, racial segregation.


What does he want from us, that evil man: What do we have to do with apartheid? Does a separation fence constitute separation? Do separate roads for Jewish settlers and Palestinians really separate? Are Palestinian enclaves between Jewish settlements Bantustans?


There is no hint of similarity between South Africa and Israel, and only a sick mind could draw such shadowy connections between them. Roadblocks and inspections at every turn; licenses and permits for every little matter; the arbitrary seizure of land; special privileges in water use; cheap, hard labor; forming and uniting families by bureaucratic whim - none of these are apartheid, in any way. They are an incontrovertible security necessity, period.

The white Afrikaners, too, had reasons for their segregation policy; they, too, felt threatened - a great evil was at their door, and they were frightened, out to defend themselves. Unfortunately, however, all good reasons for apartheid are bad reasons; apartheid always has a reason, and it never has a justification. And what acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck - it is apartheid. Nor does it even solve the problem of fear: Today, everyone knows that all apartheid will inevitably reach its sorry end.

 

[Daniyel]

For example:
1.live under apartheid regimes - The Palestinians of Gaza/WB?
Where is the specific line determining apartheid?
Since when?
Which laws are completely unjustified, and which are partly justified, discussing the outcome.

Let the writer from Haaretz speak for me here.

Yes, it is apartheid

http://www.haaretz.com

Let's let old Carter be, so he may let sleeping warriors lie; he will not be back. The contents of his words, however, should not be ignored. "Apartheid," he said, "apartheid" - a dark, scary word coined by Afrikaners and meaning segregation, racial segregation.


What does he want from us, that evil man: What do we have to do with apartheid? Does a separation fence constitute separation? Do separate roads for Jewish settlers and Palestinians really separate? Are Palestinian enclaves between Jewish settlements Bantustans?


There is no hint of similarity between South Africa and Israel, and only a sick mind could draw such shadowy connections between them. Roadblocks and inspections at every turn; licenses and permits for every little matter; the arbitrary seizure of land; special privileges in water use; cheap, hard labor; forming and uniting families by bureaucratic whim - none of these are apartheid, in any way. They are an incontrovertible security necessity, period.

The white Afrikaners, too, had reasons for their segregation policy; they, too, felt threatened - a great evil was at their door, and they were frightened, out to defend themselves. Unfortunately, however, all good reasons for apartheid are bad reasons; apartheid always has a reason, and it never has a justification. And what acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck - it is apartheid. Nor does it even solve the problem of fear: Today, everyone knows that all apartheid will inevitably reach its sorry end.

I Assumed you know quite enough which is why I'd like to discuss each and every point you made, so lets talk about what you know instead of a random copy-paste you made using Google Search.
And by the way, I boycott Haaretz just like you do.

 

[cnm]

Palestine has sought and received assistance from the UN, Iran and Russia to name a few yet they still resort to terrorism.

It seems you decline to nominate the always available authority to which Palestinians should have appealed at the time.

I suggest this is because it didn't exist but you are not prepared to back down from an untenable position.

 

[Billo_Really]

Certainly when compared to Europe's treatment of her Jews, the Arabs of that time seem tolerant but it's just a matter of degree. Take the case of the Egyptian-Ottoman War (1831-1833). You will learn that the region's Jews were killied, expelled, enslaved and/or forced to convert to Islam. Additionally the Bedouins regularly attacked the villages and killed, expelled or enslaved the inhabitants.

Not that I'm disputing it, but where's your link for that?

Clearly WW1 spelled the end of the relatively calm relations but the existence of Jews did not instigate the Arab violence but rather the end of Ottoman rule and the rise of nationalist movements all over the Mideast did. You are barking up the wrong tree ... again.

Am I? Let's see...

According to your link...

"...the existence of Jews did not instigate the Arab violence..."​

That is correct. It was the introduction of Zionists and the apartheid, racist, hostility they brought with them, that instigated Arab violence.

 

[cnm]

I Assumed you know quite enough which is why I'd like to discuss each and every point you made, so lets talk about what you know instead of a random copy-paste you made using Google Search.
And by the way, I boycott Haaretz just like you do.

If the conditions stated in that article are not enough to show you why normal people think Palestinians live under apartheid regimes I can do no better.

Perhaps you can convince normal people that Palestinians do not live under apartheid regimes. Feel free.

 

[Billo_Really]

I think we need to move forward a bit. It serves no useful purpose to dwell on events of six, seven, eight and nine decades ago, during a period of hostile evolution. These events cannot be changes. And the association between the factors that can solve todays issue are very remote to the pol-mil conditions of these distant periods. What we see historically in the Palestinian Black Hand or the Irgun has little impact on the potential for solutions to the evolved situation of today.

You cannot move forward until you determine the cause of the problem. No problem can be solved until you break it down to the causal level. If you do not know how a problem came into existence, then you'll have no idea on how to find the right solution.

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinian wants to establish a peaceful settlement and begin the process to the mediation of grievances. I don't think the leadership of the Palestinian people want a better life for their people. And I don't believe the people of the State of Palestine have as a goal, --- peace, security and prosperity. They have been fighting for so long that they are a new species in a culture that does not know any other way.

Most Respectfully,
R

It's not what you don't believe about the Palestinian leadership, it's what you don't believe about the Israeli leadership, which is the problem. That through their barbaric, tyrannical actions, they are causing the majority of the violence.