What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Spartacactcus]

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Because on boards like these it is always stated that the Arabs/Palestinians never accepted the Jewish state at any point which is historically accurate.

What is much less well known is that neither did/have the Zionists. For sure in public they saw and supported any chance of the furthering of the Jewish state in Palestine as progressing the dream. In private , however, they never really accepted anything less than all of Palestine and often had eyes on areas completely out of those borders as well.

Finkelstein had it right years back when he stated that, to paraphrase " there has never been a peace process , but rather an annexation process that used the " peace process " as a facade ".

The rejectionism of both sides is not what we regularly see in the discussion hence my comment

 

[Spartacactcus]

It is interesting that the Palestinians always call for a solution based on international law and UN resolutions.

Israel says: We don't need no steenking law.

The Palestinians have realized that the application of international law is the only game in town that actually supports their rights and offers them the chance of a just , or as just as possible , resolution of the conflict.

If you are allowed to flout the law for as long as Israel has it shouldn't come as a surprise to see the Israeli side viewing it with contempt. The cherrypicking of it is what gets to me about the so called supporters of Israel and the state itself.

 

[rylah]

You confuse international law with popular vote in the UN.
It is illegal to prevent Jewish settlement and sovereignty in Judea.

The US itself is bound by the Balfour Declaration and Mandate terms Constitutionally.

I count the two as seperate events but see the justice and pragmatism in both as the better option for conflict resolution

The reason why the UNGA November vote at the UN is so massively popular is because it is seen as a just framework with which to engender a lasting resolution of the conflict

Nope, there are numerous UNGA and UNSC resolutions that have been applied to the situation wrt Israel/Palestine the latter being legally binding.

If we were to see the US veto blocking this chance of progress being removed then there would be the opportunity for the legal battle required to ascertain what is applicable and what is not. I am more inclined to accept the view of experts from both sides/all sides in international law than some random blogger on an anonymous board.

We need that legal wrangle and a definitive verdict to set the parameters for debate

And,there are moral as well as legal considerations imo that trump such an aged and blatantly racist /colonialist justification than that of the Balfour declaration which is what when you break it down ?

The gifting of the land of one people to another by yet another still.If that's what you want to set your moral compass by in the year 2020 be my guest but it seems morally retarded by contemporary moral standards

If that is all it takes to deny binding international law, then don't propose it as a measure.
What is racist about recognizing indigenous rights of the nation?

A UN resolution is binding only if it follows its own charter, and the charter of the League of Nations,
its formal legal basis - and all those recognize sovereignty of the Jewish Nation in Judea,
on the basis of "safeguard of civilizations".

 

[Spartacactcus]

If that is all it takes to deny binding international law, then don't propose it as a measure.

That international law has its enforcement issues ,solely down to the US veto in this case, is extremely frustrating and has enabled this slaughter to go on longer than it ever needed to imo BUT if it could be pressured into a reversal that would be a monumental step forward on numerous levels and that's what people should be pushing for.
It is proposed because it is the correct and just mechanism with which to try to resolve the conflict.

You are coming across as someone who supports the might is right camp so maybe you should resist the urge to cherrypick the laws you seem to hold in contempt and I guarantee you will have done so in the past and will have no problem doing so in the future

What is racist about recognizing indigenous rights of the nation?

You don't see any racism in the British thinking they had the right to promise the land they had conquered to an immigrant European settler colonialist movement with the total disregard to what the truly indigenous people living there, the Arabs , thought ? Really ?

At the time of the first immigrant Zionists into Palestine the Jewish population was a miniscule 2-5 %. If you want to class that percentage as indicative of the " indigenous " people and bomb out the other 95% on the grounds that they are somehow non indigenous feel free but don't expect to be taken seriously

I suppose if you support settler colonialism anywhere it's pretty much a waste of time discussing what equates to racism so at least you can be deemed consistant

A UN resolution is binding only if it follows its own charter, and the charter of the League of Nations,
its formal legal basis - and all those recognize sovereignty of the Jewish Nation in Judea,
on the basis of "safeguard of civilizations".

I am pretty sure international law experts are fully aware of all the above and yet when some of them convened in the 2004 advisory opinion on the legality of the annexation wall they also made the call that all of the settlements in the territories occupied since 1967 by Israel are illegal under international law.

I actually want to see the US veto blocking this crucial argument to be stopped precisely so it can be thrashed out and a decision made and I am certainly not going to put your opinion before those mentioned above

 

[Coyote]

Legitimacy, ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

It hit me when I looked at what flac called the measles map. It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Gaza can be a state eventually. But maybe WB should just be annexed.

Imo you cannot claim " legitimacy " by breaking the law. You cannot expect anyone to recognize as legitimate a crime against another just because they have been allowed to get away with it for decades.

If some people are only just now coming to the conclusion that Israel/Zionism never had any intention of honouring a two state soution, historical acceptance( Peel/UN partition ) was privately admitted as a stepping stone for the Jewish state by the likes of Ben Gurion and co , that shouldn't mean they should just capitulate to Israeli regional hegemony/propaganda and reject the rights of others.


If both sides are incapable of resolving it by themselves or with eachother there is always the option to put pressure on the US to stop it using its veto power in order to scupper the application of international law , in line with the decades long overwhelming international consensus and have the UN/ICJ sit both sides down an attempt a just resolution of the conflict based on international law instead of the status quo which is nothing but might is right.

I respect your willingness to offer a solution , I just think it lacks balance , justice and is a de facto encouragement for more international crimes being committed by states in the future , further undermining existing international law.

If people want to resolve the conflict to end the suffering they should use and support the application of international law which is the correct mechanism for setting out the framework and offering a more just resolution than the might is right alternative.

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Why do you only blame the Palestinians?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Legitimacy, ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

It hit me when I looked at what flac called the measles map. It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Gaza can be a state eventually. But maybe WB should just be annexed.

Imo you cannot claim " legitimacy " by breaking the law. You cannot expect anyone to recognize as legitimate a crime against another just because they have been allowed to get away with it for decades.

If some people are only just now coming to the conclusion that Israel/Zionism never had any intention of honouring a two state soution, historical acceptance( Peel/UN partition ) was privately admitted as a stepping stone for the Jewish state by the likes of Ben Gurion and co , that shouldn't mean they should just capitulate to Israeli regional hegemony/propaganda and reject the rights of others.


If both sides are incapable of resolving it by themselves or with eachother there is always the option to put pressure on the US to stop it using its veto power in order to scupper the application of international law , in line with the decades long overwhelming international consensus and have the UN/ICJ sit both sides down an attempt a just resolution of the conflict based on international law instead of the status quo which is nothing but might is right.

I respect your willingness to offer a solution , I just think it lacks balance , justice and is a de facto encouragement for more international crimes being committed by states in the future , further undermining existing international law.

If people want to resolve the conflict to end the suffering they should use and support the application of international law which is the correct mechanism for setting out the framework and offering a more just resolution than the might is right alternative.

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Why do you only blame the Palestinians?

How can you tell from this post that I only blame the Palestinians? I was asking Sparta why, in his long post, he only accused Israel of not wanting a two-state solution, without mentioning that the Palestinians were also averse to that idea. He gave me a satisfactory answer for his omission.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Legitimacy, ability to better govern the region and all it's people under one legal system.

It hit me when I looked at what flac called the measles map. It isn't just Palestinian violence that caused the erosion of a 2 state solution. I don't think Israel ever seriously intended for it to happen. The map starkly refutes it. Given that neither side, imo, is capable of honoring it.. what is left? The status quo?

Gaza can be a state eventually. But maybe WB should just be annexed.

Imo you cannot claim " legitimacy " by breaking the law. You cannot expect anyone to recognize as legitimate a crime against another just because they have been allowed to get away with it for decades.

If some people are only just now coming to the conclusion that Israel/Zionism never had any intention of honouring a two state soution, historical acceptance( Peel/UN partition ) was privately admitted as a stepping stone for the Jewish state by the likes of Ben Gurion and co , that shouldn't mean they should just capitulate to Israeli regional hegemony/propaganda and reject the rights of others.


If both sides are incapable of resolving it by themselves or with eachother there is always the option to put pressure on the US to stop it using its veto power in order to scupper the application of international law , in line with the decades long overwhelming international consensus and have the UN/ICJ sit both sides down an attempt a just resolution of the conflict based on international law instead of the status quo which is nothing but might is right.

I respect your willingness to offer a solution , I just think it lacks balance , justice and is a de facto encouragement for more international crimes being committed by states in the future , further undermining existing international law.

If people want to resolve the conflict to end the suffering they should use and support the application of international law which is the correct mechanism for setting out the framework and offering a more just resolution than the might is right alternative.

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Why do you only blame the Palestinians?

How can you tell from this post that I only blame the Palestinians? I was asking Sparta why, in his long post, he only accused Israel of not wanting a two-state solution, without mentioning that the Palestinians were also averse to that idea. He gave me a satisfactory answer for his omission.

The whole thread is nonsense since it is about the prospect of Israel annexing all of Judea and Samaria and there is little to no support for this among Israelis. Bennett proposed this a few years ago in a NYT opinion piece and was promptly taken to school by both left and right. Israel will continue to maintain de facto sovereignty over areas A and B without annexing them. The real question is how much of area C will Israel annex and when? The cabinet will vote on annexing all of the Jordan Valley and all the settlements this week and the Knesset will likely vote on it next week.

 

[flacaltenn]

Many of them or most of them were farmers before Israel stole their land.

No they weren't.. Where do think those hospitals and universities came from? They were there BEFORE the war.. You have a very clouded view of life in Palestine Today even if you DID author that thread and post for 50 pages or so...

Doesn't matter what amount of food anyone exports.. What matters is what the import/export BALANCE is..

I hear that Palestine had a positive balance of trade.

They MIGHT. I don't know.. BUT -- not if you include Gaza...

Problem IS their 80% "trading partner" is only Israel and that's not a fair trade situation considering Israel can manipulate what they produce and bring to market in many ways..

On the bright side, a lot of mutual dependencies are developing which is GREAT for relations between the two of them...

Part of what I'm proposing gives them direct access to the world for trade and commerce. With the help of Jordan and Egypt as well as Israel...

Well, that was before Israel destroyed the holy land.

Israelis bought a lot of sand dunes from Arabs fleeing to better grounds and turned it into a vibrant, tolerant oasis in a sea of despair... Holy Land is there awaiting your arrival..

Your romantic notion that this place will go back to subsistence farming and grazing is quite naive.. The land in all of Israel and Palestine would NOT employ even 2 Million Pali farmers.. Not EVEN 200,000 Texas A&M graduates with doctorates in agriculture.. That's a fact.. Get a more realistic view of what's REQUIRED for a Pali population of about 2.5 Million...

If that why you think the land is "destroyed", go design a Disney World version of YOUR vision of the Holy Land and charge $180 a day for families...

 

[flacaltenn]

Trade and employment with foreign business is an essential aspect of modern economy.
Farming is unfortunately becoming less and less sustainable in the broad sense,
and especially given the tiny land mass.

That said, Israel is becoming a world leader in the transformation towards modern urbanized agriculture technologies. It's a huge business with great potential, no less than the High-Tech industry.

If you want the world economy to return to the 7th century just for the Arabs to "feel comfortable",
this won't happen. They have to be competent in the real world.

Farming is unfortunately becoming less and less sustainable in the broad sense,
and especially given the tiny land mass.

Any country that cannot feed its people is at the whims of others. That is a precarious position.

Islamic terrorists spending their welfare money on the tunnel
gee-had will have less welfare money for agriculture.

Stupid post.

You can't grow food on money. You grow food on land.

When all of your land is stolen, you are out of business.

The world is beyond "subsistence" living... Except for "greenie intellectuals" that live in tall apartment building and have never SEEN where their food actually comes from... You have a romantic concept of what keeps Palis or any other people fed...

Working a single hectare of land by hand feeds virtually only a few people.. You know most farmers in the west have college degrees in agriculture and maybe even an Masters in Business.. THAT is what it takes to sustain a population where 85% of them live in the DENSE URBAN cities....

Yes. And ask why some people are romanticizing subsistence farming. It’s another way to pretend victimization.

Worse than that, the UN and various intl NGOs are trying to KEEP the developing world in that subsistence state for their own protection...

 

[Mindful]

The notion that the Palestinians will accept a Jewish state of any size, in any form, is a pipe dream.

 

[flacaltenn]

If some people are only just now coming to the conclusion that Israel/Zionism never had any intention of honouring a two state soution, historical acceptance( Peel/UN partition ) was privately admitted as a stepping stone for the Jewish state by the likes of Ben Gurion and co , that shouldn't mean they should just capitulate to Israeli regional hegemony/propaganda and reject the rights of others.

And yet TODAY -- a pro-Israel US govt and the govt of Israel is reviving "the 2 state solution".. In a way where if the Palis can't CREATE a state on their own, they will get help to do so...

Nope, there are numerous UNGA and UNSC resolutions that have been applied to the situation wrt Israel/Palestine the latter being legally binding.

These are no more legally binding than the UN Declaration of Human Rights which IRONICALLY has a "rights kill switch" embedded in it for the benefit of those many DICTATORSHIPS that SIT in the UNGA or UNSC.... Besides, many of those resolutions applied to JORDAN as well in that Israel had to negotiate with Jordan (and Egypt) for land acquired from the 1967 war..

 

[flacaltenn]

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Because on boards like these it is always stated that the Arabs/Palestinians never accepted the Jewish state at any point which is historically accurate.

What is much less well known is that neither did/have the Zionists. For sure in public they saw and supported any chance of the furthering of the Jewish state in Palestine as progressing the dream. In private , however, they never really accepted anything less than all of Palestine and often had eyes on areas completely out of those borders as well.

Finkelstein had it right years back when he stated that, to paraphrase " there has never been a peace process , but rather an annexation process that used the " peace process " as a facade ".

The rejectionism of both sides is not what we regularly see in the discussion hence my comment

Ironic.. since what the Palis LACK is a Zionist movement.. They fight with each other over Gaza after Israel drags every last Jew out of there by force and hands it to PA... Zionism is simply ACKNOWLEDGED diplomatic leadership that binds ALL of its people thru common beliefs and goals. If the Palis could ORGANIZE like that, we wouldn't be waiting for A PARTY TO NEGOTIATE WITH...

Ain't no chance of UN solution.. Ain't no chance of a fractured PA solution.. But there ARE different forms of organization OTHER than :"statehood" that would still give them international recognition and power to negotiate on behalf OF ALL OF THEM... That's why I'm proposing an "emirates" or city state model based on city states with a purposely WEAK central govt....

There never has been and never WILL be a huge demand for a "western style" State.. They are steeped in identifying by their tribal, familial, place of origin identities and PREFER "local and consolidated" govt to any kind of large inclusive statehood.. You're asking them to accept models that they do not trust...

 

[flacaltenn]

Israel cannot negotiate with a "vaporware" leadership... NO country can...

 

[flacaltenn]

Many of them or most of them were farmers before Israel stole their land.

No they weren't.. Where do think those hospitals and universities came from? They were there BEFORE the war.. You have a very clouded view of life in Palestine Today even if you DID author that thread and post for 50 pages or so...

Doesn't matter what amount of food anyone exports.. What matters is what the import/export BALANCE is..

I hear that Palestine had a positive balance of trade.

They MIGHT. I don't know.. BUT -- not if you include Gaza...

Problem IS their 80% "trading partner" is only Israel and that's not a fair trade situation considering Israel can manipulate what they produce and bring to market in many ways..

On the bright side, a lot of mutual dependencies are developing which is GREAT for relations between the two of them...

Part of what I'm proposing gives them direct access to the world for trade and commerce. With the help of Jordan and Egypt as well as Israel...

Well, that was before Israel destroyed the holy land.

Interesting that you call it the "Holy Land." It was the Holy Land for Jews before it was that for the Christians and Muslims (whose real Holy Land is Saudi Arabia anyway where Mecca is located). And it's because of the Jews that it even became a Holy Land to those 2 other faiths. And Israel didn't "destroy" the Holy Land, lol. It built cities and drained swamps, and kept all the holy sites in pristine condition. Which is alot more than I can say for the Arabs.

Let's be honest here.. The Pentatuch is a Muslim/Judaic family tree.. I don't think that argument flies because ARABS and JEWS have the same forebears in the Bible.. It's fine to IMAGINE they led separate lives wandering around the MidEast, but come Thanksgiving, they all eat from the table..

 

[flacaltenn]

The notion that the Palestinians will accept a Jewish state of any size, in any form, is a pipe dream.

At this point, MANY will.. But they want a better deal.. And SOME folks are working along those lines. Others are just whining about romantic notions of the past.

Then there's the Hamas types that get to weigh in and screw the REST of them out of any deal... LEADERSHIP that can LAST is the key element here.. It will NOT COME from a large centralized govt for Palestine that tends to slide to corruption, and causes tribal, locality, feuds.. They don't WANT to agree...

The USA is becoming tribal as well.. We MAY fail as well to SUSTAIN a representative government. So we should be sensitive about the TYPE of representation that people are comfortable with and NOT force them into models that will not endure...

 

[Picaro]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections. Their votes on issues in their own elections make it very very clear why. They also already have a two state solution, and they screwed that up royally, no need for what is really a 'third state' solution just so some Arab gangsters can feel 'legitimate'.

 

[Spartacactcus]

And yet TODAY -- a pro-Israel US govt and the govt of Israel is reviving "the 2 state solution".. In a way where if the Palis can't CREATE a state on their own, they will get help to do so...

What they seem to be endorsing is the two state solution the Israeli state has wanted/worked for since the onset of the Palestinian peace offensive from the 1970's onwards which is FAR from what the application of international law would afford the Palestinians as the basis to start negotiations.

The problem for Zionism is and always has been how to acquire the land without the acquiring the Arabs that are living on it.

So when they were the weaker group they accepted, stragglers aside, the Peel Commisions recommendation which was the creation of an Arab state and a Jewish state with the ethos being something being better than nothing.

After the Palestinian revolt 0f 1936-39 the Palestinian position worsened still and the Jewish position improved. Once more we see the Jewish leaders accept the UN partition plan and for the same reason. In private however they never accepted this as a final settlement and ben Gurion himself said it would be the Jewish people that set the borders for the Jewish state.

Once Israel had established itself and its military power was stronger than the Arab side it initiated a war to ,imo , conquer and claim the rest of the former partition plan area.

As time has passed and the Palestinian grew to accept the reality of Israel , along wityh growing UN and international condemnation of Israeli flouting of international laws, attacks on its neighbours and it's treatment of those under its control.

Today Israel wants to annexe most of the settlements , have control over the crucial water resources and most valuable land in the WB whilst ridding itself of the burden of the millons of Palestinians there forcing them to live in a series of disconnected and unviable state lite with that being locked into a deal for all time

Trump and co are just rolling out that plan for them as something of the deal of the century and the Palestinians , unsurprisingly, have rejected it

 

[Picaro]

Israel cannot negotiate with a "vaporware" leadership... NO country can...

No matter what the majority will vote for, the press and most other Muslim states will peddle the dissenters and terrorist factions as the 'legitimate' factions deserving of world support, same as they did after 1948. There will never be a 'legitimate' Arab govt. that will work at peaceful resolutions, it's a fantasy. Like the premise of the thread title, all these alleged 'fair' solutions merely make demands that will result in the genocide of Israelis, and just like in the past the homicidal maniacs will rob and kill their 'Arab brothers' as well.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

No they weren't.. Where do think those hospitals and universities came from? They were there BEFORE the war.. You have a very clouded view of life in Palestine Today even if you DID author that thread and post for 50 pages or so...

Doesn't matter what amount of food anyone exports.. What matters is what the import/export BALANCE is..

I hear that Palestine had a positive balance of trade.

They MIGHT. I don't know.. BUT -- not if you include Gaza...

Problem IS their 80% "trading partner" is only Israel and that's not a fair trade situation considering Israel can manipulate what they produce and bring to market in many ways..

On the bright side, a lot of mutual dependencies are developing which is GREAT for relations between the two of them...

Part of what I'm proposing gives them direct access to the world for trade and commerce. With the help of Jordan and Egypt as well as Israel...

Well, that was before Israel destroyed the holy land.

Interesting that you call it the "Holy Land." It was the Holy Land for Jews before it was that for the Christians and Muslims (whose real Holy Land is Saudi Arabia anyway where Mecca is located). And it's because of the Jews that it even became a Holy Land to those 2 other faiths. And Israel didn't "destroy" the Holy Land, lol. It built cities and drained swamps, and kept all the holy sites in pristine condition. Which is alot more than I can say for the Arabs.

Let's be honest here.. The Pentatuch is a Muslim/Judaic family tree.. I don't think that argument flies because ARABS and JEWS have the same forebears in the Bible.. It's fine to IMAGINE they led separate lives wandering around the MidEast, but come Thanksgiving, they all eat from the table..

According to the Muslims' own beliefs, after Abraham and Sarah kicked out Ishmael and Hagar, they went to Arabia and built the Kaaba. I repeat, this is according to them.

 

[flacaltenn]

The problem for Zionism is and always has been how to acquire the land without the acquiring the Arabs that are living on it.

Yep the EMPIRE of Israel stretches far and wide don't it? Once youre out of city traffic at the beach and Jerusalem, it takes you maybe a whole 40 minutes WITH CHECKPOINTS to cross it... Darth Vader himself was at the WH today with a whole bunch of Arab country representatives, DICTATING TO THEM what the "final solution" will be...