What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Spartacactcus]

These are no more legally binding than the UN Declaration of Human Rights which IRONICALLY has a "rights kill switch" embedded in it for the benefit of those many DICTATORSHIPS that SIT in the UNGA or UNSC.... Besides, many of those resolutions applied to JORDAN as well in that Israel had to negotiate with Jordan (and Egypt) for land acquired from the 1967 war..

UNSC resolutions are legally binding and if it were not for the US veto standing in the way of the international consensus there would most likely have been a resolution of the conflict already.

I have stated that there are definitely frustrating weaknesses/contradictions with the UN , namely the UNSC veto power of the big 5, which are incidentally most of the biggest arms dealer nations around, how's that for a conflict of interests ? But support for international laws that are there to aim to keep the peace should be supported by all decent people of the world imo

The UN Charter doesn't start off with " we the governments of the world " , it starts off with " we the peoples of the world " and we , each of us in our own nations , need to stop our governments from flouting international laws and conventions.

Progress is slow with obvious periods of regression but people need to stick with it imo

 

[Spartacactcus]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

 

[toomuchtime_]

The notion that the Palestinians will accept a Jewish state of any size, in any form, is a pipe dream.

The nice thing, perhaps the clever thing, about Trump's plan is that Israel's actions do not depend on what the Palestinians decide

The Palestinians also never had any intention of honoring a two-state solution. Why do you only say Israel?

Because on boards like these it is always stated that the Arabs/Palestinians never accepted the Jewish state at any point which is historically accurate.

What is much less well known is that neither did/have the Zionists. For sure in public they saw and supported any chance of the furthering of the Jewish state in Palestine as progressing the dream. In private , however, they never really accepted anything less than all of Palestine and often had eyes on areas completely out of those borders as well.

Finkelstein had it right years back when he stated that, to paraphrase " there has never been a peace process , but rather an annexation process that used the " peace process " as a facade ".

The rejectionism of both sides is not what we regularly see in the discussion hence my comment

What a load of bullshit! Did some Israelis aspire to more land than Israel had at the time? Absolutely, but what you are saying is that if I aspire to have sex with a woman, I am guilty of rape. Did Israel take the peace process seriously? Absolutely. Look at the polls of Israelis during Oslo and you will see Israelis took the process very seriously. Look at the land Israel gave up to the Egyptians in exchange for peace or to Jordan in exchange for peace or even to the Palestinians when Sharon gave Abbas Gaza. What have the Palestinians been willing to give up for peace? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they have had to be bribed each time to even agree to sit down with Israelis to discuss peace.

 

[Picaro]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

They already decided; Jordan, the Palestinian state, relinquished any claims on the West Bank; it is now open for Jewish settlements with Palestinian consent. the squatters just need to go back to Syria, Egypt, and the other Arab states they came from. Just because Arab racists illegally denied Jews to settle anywhere in the Mandate doesn't mean their settlements are illegitimate, they are in fact completely legal an long overdue. It's clear the illegal squatters Jordan left behind have no interest in developing the land anyway, they just continue to rely on extortion and murder for hire as their primary source of income.

 

[Spartacactcus]

Yep the EMPIRE of Israel stretches far and wide don't it? Once youre out of city traffic at the beach and Jerusalem, it takes you maybe a whole 40 minutes WITH CHECKPOINTS to cross it... Darth Vader himself was at the WH today with a whole bunch of Arab country representatives, DICTATING TO THEM what the "final solution" will be...

It only has to " stretch " far enough to deny an entire people their right to self determination to be classed as wrong imo

East Timor is smaller still , so was the Indonesian treatment of them justified by the same token ?

 

[Spartacactcus]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

They already decided; Jordan, the Palestinian state, relinquished any claims on the West Bank; it is now open for Jewish settlements with Palestinian consent. the squatters just need to go back to Syria, Egypt, and the other Arab states they came from. Just because Arab racists illegally denied Jews to settle anywhere in the Mandate doesn't mean their settlements are illegitimate, they are in fact completely legal an long overdue. It's clear the illegal squatters Jordan left behind have no interest in developing the land anyway, they just continue to rely on extortion and murder for hire as their primary source of income.

Jordan doesn't decide for the Palestinians what or how their state should be constructed anymore than they should your own state.

Your denial of the people of Palestine, in true Joan Peters style, is acknowledged and rejected. Your own racism against Arabs is noted and rejected too

 

[toomuchtime_]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

They already decided; Jordan, the Palestinian state, relinquished any claims on the West Bank; it is now open for Jewish settlements with Palestinian consent. the squatters just need to go back to Syria, Egypt, and the other Arab states they came from. Just because Arab racists illegally denied Jews to settle anywhere in the Mandate doesn't mean their settlements are illegitimate, they are in fact completely legal an long overdue. It's clear the illegal squatters Jordan left behind have no interest in developing the land anyway, they just continue to rely on extortion and murder for hire as their primary source of income.

Jordan doesn't decide for the Palestinians what or how their state should be constructed anymore than they should your own state.

Your denial of the people of Palestine, in true Joan Peters style, is acknowledged and rejected. Your own racism against Arabs is noted and rejected too

lol What state?

 

[Shusha]

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

All of the "settlements" ARE in Israel. The Palestinians can have self-determination when they accept peace, recognize Israel, yes, as the state for the Jewish people, put down their weapons, and just develop their state.

They can start by accepting one of the peace visions on offer. What the hell are they holding out for?

 

[toomuchtime_]

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

All of the "settlements" ARE in Israel. The Palestinians can have self-determination when they accept peace, recognize Israel, yes, as the state for the Jewish people, put down their weapons, and just develop their state.

They can start by accepting one of the peace visions on offer. What the hell are they holding out for?

Hatred of Jews and Israel is the defining characteristic of the so called Palestinians. If they gave that up, who would they be?

 

[Spartacactcus]

What a load of bullshit! Did some Israelis aspire to more land than Israel had at the time? Absolutely, but what you are saying is that if I aspire to have sex with a woman, I am guilty of rape. Did Israel take the peace process seriously? Absolutely. Look at the polls of Israelis during Oslo and you will see Israelis took the process very seriously. Look at the land Israel gave up to the Egyptians in exchange for peace or to Jordan in exchange for peace or even to the Palestinians when Sharon gave Abbas Gaza. What have the Palestinians been willing to give up for peace? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they have had to be bribed each time to even agree to sit down with Israelis to discuss peace.

You talk of " bullshit " then come out with a whole load of it in the above diatribe. The reference to rape is an old hasbara mainstay and is always, always misrepresented as it has been here. It's an appeal , and an irrational one at that , to the emotional in the face of a lack of a proper reesponse. If you need it explaining I will gladly do so and believe me you won't look good after it.

Both publics took the Oslo Process seriously at first. You probably wouldn't know about the Palestinian support for it in the early years because you don't want to know what they think nor care about it. Both sides have stopped their support for it because it was a BS process and once they realized that all hell let loose again.

On peace with the other Arabs

Egypt

Anwar Sadat informed the UN Jarring mission that unless the Israelis left the occupied Sinai he would be forced to attack them and remove them himself. This is 2 years prior to the 1973 Egyptian war of territorial liberation. So the land that Israel " gave up " was sovereign Egyptian territory it was occupying and had no title to

Jordan

The Jordanian-Israel peace treaty saw Israel " give back " an insignificant amount of land, basically a man made island with a power station on it , that was formerly Jordanian sovereign territory.

Gaza was never " given back " either. At least if given back means they can run it as they like seeing as it is now their territory. They took out the illegal settlers , moved the guards from the inside to the perimeter fence and opened the largest open ait prison in the world.

Image seperated from reality

 

[flacaltenn]

These are no more legally binding than the UN Declaration of Human Rights which IRONICALLY has a "rights kill switch" embedded in it for the benefit of those many DICTATORSHIPS that SIT in the UNGA or UNSC.... Besides, many of those resolutions applied to JORDAN as well in that Israel had to negotiate with Jordan (and Egypt) for land acquired from the 1967 war..

UNSC resolutions are legally binding and if it were not for the US veto standing in the way of the international consensus there would most likely have been a resolution of the conflict already.

I have stated that there are definitely frustrating weaknesses/contradictions with the UN , namely the UNSC veto power of the big 5, which are incidentally most of the biggest arms dealer nations around, how's that for a conflict of interests ? But support for international laws that are there to aim to keep the peace should be supported by all decent people of the world imo

The UN Charter doesn't start off with " we the governments of the world " , it starts off with " we the peoples of the world " and we , each of us in our own nations , need to stop our governments from flouting international laws and conventions.

Progress is slow with obvious periods of regression but people need to stick with it imo

How many wars has the UN prevented or won?? Really not interested spending time worshipping an institution that dictates a "Rights" for "the people" and puts a kill switch clause in small print at the very end... BINDING? Over national sovereignty?? What nation do YOU live in???

Want to see the Declaration of Rights for "the people of world" signed by narco-dictators and human rights abusers?? Where's the UN Army to enforce those rights???

I'll dig it up for you and if you're RATIONAL it'll chill your bones....

 

[Spartacactcus]

All of the "settlements" ARE in Israel. The Palestinians can have self-determination when they accept peace, recognize Israel, yes, as the state for the Jewish people, put down their weapons, and just develop their state.

They can start by accepting one of the peace visions on offer. What the hell are they holding out for?

The settlements are in Occupied Palestinian Territory and thus illegal as per the ICJ opinion on them

Imo they are " holding out " for a genuine self determination and resisting a deal that would lock in forever with everyone whistling and looking the other way , most of the worst aspects of life under occupation in a "state" that is really a state lite and by some distance a state lite

 

[flacaltenn]

Yep the EMPIRE of Israel stretches far and wide don't it? Once youre out of city traffic at the beach and Jerusalem, it takes you maybe a whole 40 minutes WITH CHECKPOINTS to cross it... Darth Vader himself was at the WH today with a whole bunch of Arab country representatives, DICTATING TO THEM what the "final solution" will be...

It only has to " stretch " far enough to deny an entire people their right to self determination to be classed as wrong imo

East Timor is smaller still , so was the Indonesian treatment of them justified by the same token ?

I guess old families in Mexico feel the same way about the raw deal that lost them their rancheros in California and New Mexico... For crying out loud their heritage and footprints are right outside the Staples Center in LA...

 

[Shusha]

The nice thing, perhaps the clever thing, about Trump's plan is that Israel's actions do not depend on what the Palestinians decide

Yep. The language in the plan is very much, "Israel is entitled to these things and here are the reasons why".

 

[Spartacactcus]

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

All of the "settlements" ARE in Israel. The Palestinians can have self-determination when they accept peace, recognize Israel, yes, as the state for the Jewish people, put down their weapons, and just develop their state.

They can start by accepting one of the peace visions on offer. What the hell are they holding out for?

Hatred of Jews and Israel is the defining characteristic of the so called Palestinians. If they gave that up, who would they be?

People tend to hate those that abuse them , who knew ?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

What a load of bullshit! Did some Israelis aspire to more land than Israel had at the time? Absolutely, but what you are saying is that if I aspire to have sex with a woman, I am guilty of rape. Did Israel take the peace process seriously? Absolutely. Look at the polls of Israelis during Oslo and you will see Israelis took the process very seriously. Look at the land Israel gave up to the Egyptians in exchange for peace or to Jordan in exchange for peace or even to the Palestinians when Sharon gave Abbas Gaza. What have the Palestinians been willing to give up for peace? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they have had to be bribed each time to even agree to sit down with Israelis to discuss peace.

You talk of " bullshit " then come out with a whole load of it in the above diatribe. The reference to rape is an old hasbara mainstay and is always, always misrepresented as it has been here. It's an appeal , and an irrational one at that , to the emotional in the face of a lack of a proper reesponse. If you need it explaining I will gladly do so and believe me you won't look good after it.

Both publics took the Oslo Process seriously at first. You probably wouldn't know about the Palestinian support for it in the early years because you don't want to know what they think nor care about it. Both sides have stopped their support for it because it was a BS process and once they realized that all hell let loose again.

On peace with the other Arabs

Egypt

Anwar Sadat informed the UN Jarring mission that unless the Israelis left the occupied Sinai he would be forced to attack them and remove them himself. This is 2 years prior to the 1973 Egyptian war of territorial liberation. So the land that Israel " gave up " was sovereign Egyptian territory it was occupying and had no title to

Jordan

The Jordanian-Israel peace treaty saw Israel " give back " an insignificant amount of land, basically a man made island with a power station on it , that was formerly Jordanian sovereign territory.

Gaza was never " given back " either. At least if given back means they can run it as they like seeing as it is now their territory. They took out the illegal settlers , moved the guards from the inside to the perimeter fence and opened the largest open ait prison in the world.

Image seperated from reality

I don't think the Palestinians ever took Oslo seriously. The more land Israel gave up on the West Bank, the more suicide bombings there were. Bereaved Israelis shouted at Peres, "Look at what your 'peace process' gave us!"

 

[Spartacactcus]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

They already decided; Jordan, the Palestinian state, relinquished any claims on the West Bank; it is now open for Jewish settlements with Palestinian consent. the squatters just need to go back to Syria, Egypt, and the other Arab states they came from. Just because Arab racists illegally denied Jews to settle anywhere in the Mandate doesn't mean their settlements are illegitimate, they are in fact completely legal an long overdue. It's clear the illegal squatters Jordan left behind have no interest in developing the land anyway, they just continue to rely on extortion and murder for hire as their primary source of income.

Jordan doesn't decide for the Palestinians what or how their state should be constructed anymore than they should your own state.

Your denial of the people of Palestine, in true Joan Peters style, is acknowledged and rejected. Your own racism against Arabs is noted and rejected too

lol What state?

The provisional Palestinian state that is recognized by vastly more people than the Israeli annexation attempts of East Jerusalem and the Golan , the current pantomime US president and his lackies aside

 

[Mindful]

It's pure STUPID to let West Bank thugs vote in Israeli elections.

I agree, dismantle the illegal settlements and send them back to Israel where they should be living and let the Palestinians have their rights and self determination

They already decided; Jordan, the Palestinian state, relinquished any claims on the West Bank; it is now open for Jewish settlements with Palestinian consent. the squatters just need to go back to Syria, Egypt, and the other Arab states they came from. Just because Arab racists illegally denied Jews to settle anywhere in the Mandate doesn't mean their settlements are illegitimate, they are in fact completely legal an long overdue. It's clear the illegal squatters Jordan left behind have no interest in developing the land anyway, they just continue to rely on extortion and murder for hire as their primary source of income.

Jordan doesn't decide for the Palestinians what or how their state should be constructed anymore than they should your own state.

Your denial of the people of Palestine, in true Joan Peters style, is acknowledged and rejected. Your own racism against Arabs is noted and rejected too

lol What state?

It's called Jordan. The British reneged on their promise to the Jews, and gave that part of the Mandate to the Arabs, for fear of upsetting the French in Syria. And then installing a Hashemite king.

 

[Shusha]

All of the "settlements" ARE in Israel. The Palestinians can have self-determination when they accept peace, recognize Israel, yes, as the state for the Jewish people, put down their weapons, and just develop their state.

They can start by accepting one of the peace visions on offer. What the hell are they holding out for?

The settlements are in Occupied Palestinian Territory and thus illegal as per the ICJ opinion on them

Imo they are " holding out " for a genuine self determination and resisting a deal that would lock in forever with everyone whistling and looking the other way , most of the worst aspects of life under occupation in a "state" that is really a state lite and by some distance a state lite

There is no such thing as "Palestinian territory", occupied or not. The "settlements" are in territory under full Israeli sovereignty whose final status will not be determined until a Peace Treaty is signed between Israel and a future State of Palestine. And you have consistently ignored this.

"Genuine self-determination" is a vague and foolish sound byte with no objective definition. (Perfect for rejecting anything and everything as an excuse to continue to be belligerent). Be specific. What do the Arab Palestinians NEED for "genuine self-determination"?

A recognized state? Check. Continguity? Check. Direct access between WB and Gaza? Check. Direct access to Jordan and Egypt? Check. Ports? Check. Access to holy places? Check. Choice of citizenship and remaining where they live? Check. Economic prosperity? Check. Better medical care, better education, better access to water, a new university, an airport, a history museum, free trade, improved technology, better life expectancy, lower infant mortality rate, release of their prisoners? Check. And check. And freaking check.

What are they NOT getting with a peace deal like this?

 

[Spartacactcus]

What a load of bullshit! Did some Israelis aspire to more land than Israel had at the time? Absolutely, but what you are saying is that if I aspire to have sex with a woman, I am guilty of rape. Did Israel take the peace process seriously? Absolutely. Look at the polls of Israelis during Oslo and you will see Israelis took the process very seriously. Look at the land Israel gave up to the Egyptians in exchange for peace or to Jordan in exchange for peace or even to the Palestinians when Sharon gave Abbas Gaza. What have the Palestinians been willing to give up for peace? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they have had to be bribed each time to even agree to sit down with Israelis to discuss peace.

You talk of " bullshit " then come out with a whole load of it in the above diatribe. The reference to rape is an old hasbara mainstay and is always, always misrepresented as it has been here. It's an appeal , and an irrational one at that , to the emotional in the face of a lack of a proper reesponse. If you need it explaining I will gladly do so and believe me you won't look good after it.

Both publics took the Oslo Process seriously at first. You probably wouldn't know about the Palestinian support for it in the early years because you don't want to know what they think nor care about it. Both sides have stopped their support for it because it was a BS process and once they realized that all hell let loose again.

On peace with the other Arabs

Egypt

Anwar Sadat informed the UN Jarring mission that unless the Israelis left the occupied Sinai he would be forced to attack them and remove them himself. This is 2 years prior to the 1973 Egyptian war of territorial liberation. So the land that Israel " gave up " was sovereign Egyptian territory it was occupying and had no title to

Jordan

The Jordanian-Israel peace treaty saw Israel " give back " an insignificant amount of land, basically a man made island with a power station on it , that was formerly Jordanian sovereign territory.

Gaza was never " given back " either. At least if given back means they can run it as they like seeing as it is now their territory. They took out the illegal settlers , moved the guards from the inside to the perimeter fence and opened the largest open ait prison in the world.

Image seperated from reality

I don't think the Palestinians ever took Oslo seriously. The more land Israel gave up on the West Bank, the more suicide bombings there were. Bereaved Israelis shouted at Peres, "Look at what your 'peace process' gave us!"

You wouldn't know what the Palestinians take seriously because in your book what they think doesn't count for anything. That's why you didn't know that the polls initially showed much Palestinian support for Oslo up until they realized what Oslo actually was and that it didn't even put a stop to the illegal settlement of their land by Israelis etc etc

The suicide bombings came only after the mass shootings of Palestinians during the Second Intifada , months after them in fact. Killings beget further killings and both sides are guilty