What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[Shusha]

Disagree....because some of the problems are coming from Israel's own policies which are causing the demise of a two-state opportunity.

The only reason the two-state solution is dead is because Arabs refuse to entertain the possibility.

I disagree. It enjoyed strong Palestinian support for some time. The decline in support is primarily due settlements reducing the amount of contiguous from which a state could be formed making it increasingly unlikely to happen.

"Settlements" are just an excuse for not entertaining the possibility. Why was there no two-state solution during the decades long settlement freeze?

 

[Coyote]

Are suggesting that all violence from Israel’s Jewish citizens is simply responding to Arab hostility and therefore they can not be held responsible for their acts? If so, I strongly disagree.

Nope. Not at all.

There are strong racial overtones in the violence coming out of both sides. How can we prevent them from abusing each other and ...

There you go equivalizing again. They are not abusing each other. Jewish Israelis are NOT breaking into Arab homes and slaughtering entire families with knives. Jewish Israelis are not stabbing Arabs in the streets, or in their mosques. Jewish Israelis are not planting bombs and IEDS and suicide martyrs in civilian locations trying to target as many children as possible. Jewish Israelis are not stockpiling guns in houses of worship. Jews don't collect government pensions for every Arab they slaughter.

And yes, I know there are two notable exceptions. You can name them off the top of your head. They prove the rule.

(I'm not talking about rock throwing in Area C. Whatever, stupid children (literal and figurative). They'll grow out of it.)

Here is a thought. Maybe Israel can sell the Palestinians on the benefits of citizenship. Less corruption, investment, better schools, political accountability, jobs? Maybe they should start actively investing in the Palestinian areas of Area C prior to annexation?

We happen to agree on that. And once Israel decides to fully annex, I am certain that she will provide the option of full Israeli citizenship for anyone who wants it. What happens to those who don't?

I think Israel needs to do that PRIOR to annexation. Otherwise, as far as the Palestinians go, what benefit do they see coming from a hostile power formalizing it’s control. I think the benefit has to be there first.

Those who don’t want want it can opt for permanent legal status.

 

[Coyote]

Disagree....because some of the problems are coming from Israel's own policies which are causing the demise of a two-state opportunity.

The only reason the two-state solution is dead is because Arabs refuse to entertain the possibility.

I disagree. It enjoyed strong Palestinian support for some time. The decline in support is primarily due settlements reducing the amount of contiguous from which a state could be formed making it increasingly unlikely to happen.

"Settlements" are just an excuse for not entertaining the possibility. Why was there no two-state solution during the decades long settlement freeze?

Lots of reasons, none of which mean settlements have no role.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

 

[flacaltenn]

The question being asked here is not, "How can we prevent Israel from abusing Arabs?" The question is, "In the face of a hostile and violent minority population, how should Israel respond to acts of violence, threats of violence and a culture of violence and hostility?"

Is the answer expulsion? Its a bigger question than just "what to do with individuals who commit acts of terror". Its a question of managing that hostile culture.

Oww Oww.. If I was a little more naive I could answer all that.. And I'd say ---

You make their lives so secure and prosperous, and start appreciating them as neighbors that those thoughts never cross their minds and THEY start hating the "agitators" who would destroy that bliss and opportunity FOR them as much as Israelis do....

OK -- well maybe I AM a bit naive.. But THAT is what's happening right now with Israel/Arab relations in general... The Arab neighbors to Israel are beginning to realize that Israel is a reliable and valuable neighbor.. That they only want to live their lives in peace in their own boundaries.. A lot of that stems from the need for mutual defense in a tough neighborhood as ISIS, Al Queda, and Iran have demonstrated.. But furthermore, Israel is the nexus for all the ancient Arab/Jewish trade routes in that area.. A fact that I use to pitch my plan for a new age Palestine Trade Route...

As an example of that, while I was working on this concept last year, rylah sent me this news that MIRRORS the principle "novel" feature of the plan... Israel has offered to CONNECT Jordan RAIL routes with Saudi thru existing rail routes in Egypt. Thus giving SEVERAL Arab neighbors access to Israeli ports for international commerce...

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israel-plans-rail-link-to-saudi-via-jordan-pa-1.436238

Transport and Intelligence Affairs Minister Yisrael Katz publicly presented his “Tracks for Regional Peace” initiative this week, which has already been shared with the Trump administration and other allies of Israel, including a number of Arab states.

The plan is to connect largely existing rail infrastructure in Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia via a new link between the Jezreel Valley and the border crossing to Jordan near Bet Shean. This would to allow goods trains to run all the way from the Persian Gulf to the ports of Ashdod and Haifa.

"Anti-muslim" my ass Olde Europe !! This is the same BOLD outreach that I'm proposing to put the Pali city centers on a CONNECTED "super highway" that runs along either side of the River Jordan from the Dead Sea to the North of Israel.. Same concept of creating win-win situations for an ENTIRE REGION...

(OK -- it's NOT a "super" highway because of limited land availability.. But it IS more than sufficient to run a massive amount of tractor trailers and commercial traffic)

This would make Pali Emirates the exact CENTER of action for commerce and trade in the entire Levant and beyond... And the Palis would prosper even on the limited land that they have sovereignty over and give THEM a leg up on connectivity to the world and themselves...

Israel is a valuable ally when Iran threatens Syria, Iraq or when ISIS showed up in the Sinai... And the Palis KNOW that defense of Palestine means they need the whole NEIGHBORHOOD to protect their gain of freedom...

This is worth working on.. And I'll continue... But what started as a "too long for print" magazine article has turned into a "policy paper" for diplomacy.. And along the line, I've been learning from experts in this area.. And I have no reason to doubt it's a valuable model for settling an occupation that's now over 50 years old...

 

[flacaltenn]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

 

[flacaltenn]

Yes it would....maybe semi-autonomy for some areas within an Israeli nation?

Actually fairly COMPLETE autonomy for the City Centers (or states).. Their own laws, own security, own zoning, own taxation, own determination of who speaks for them... This OF COURSE means that have to also have to establish TRADE and routes of commerce and freedom to buy and selll with ANYONE -- not just Israel.. That's why my "Palestine Trade Route" paper INCLUDES these cities at the center of a MAJOR regional transit system..

And there CAN BE a "federation" of all these City Centers (states) that cooperate on regional planning and negotiating with Israel on trade regulations and such...

A lot of Palestinians are agrarian, farmers....how would they fit in to this model?

Farmers are pretty flexible.. They need access to trade routes, water, power and NOT A LOT of "regulation"
or govt.. And if Israel recognizes their property claims and gives them access to the Israeli legal system for disputes, farmers would be just peachy.. More complicated companies and businesses would have more issues being bound by Israeli policies..

I think the main areas along the upper Jordan border would too important to defending BOTH Israel and the "Pali Federation" to NOT annex..But that would not strip out that much of the fertile ground..

One irony was when the Gazan rocket launchers actually hit the power station that was providing them with the everyday means to survive.

Here's another irony.. Gaza's utility bills are paid largely thru the remnants of the PAuthority govt from international aid. And the large reason their lights go out often is that the PA stops paying their bills because they ESSENTIALLY LEFT the PA after going to war with them..

Lot of fancy hotels and restaurants going to candlelight in Gaza...

Or they just stop paying bills, so Gazans get to say they shoot rockets because they have no electricity, and the PA can keep looking "moderate".

In anyway, nothing one signs will be recognized by the other.
They're both irrelevant.

And the world press can blame Israel for turning off the power... So they fight each over paying the utility bills when they're not plotting to assassinate each other... Sounds like a healthy "people" to me...

Have you seen any reliable polls in Gaza as to how happy the CITIZENS are with their choice of leadership? Or have too many poll takers been killed trying to accomplish that simple feat???

 

[P F Tinmore]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

 

[Coyote]

Could annexation and one state work? (Just talking about Area C, not the rest of the WB or Gaza)

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

 

[flacaltenn]

Israel is not responsible for solving the "Palestinian issue".

Yes. They are. Along with the Palestinians. Because it's not a "Palestinian issue". It's a Palestinian/Israeli issue.

You can't expect ISRAEL to dictate a solution.. For the 109th time, there needs to be a responsible RECOGNIZED leadership that speaks for the Palestinians in occupation in the West Bank....

Probably will never happen..., So the next best thing is to LOCALIZE Pali leadership and governance the way it has ALWAYS BEEN before Europeans redrew the Mid East maps..

Then a coalition of those city leaders would be the de facto NEGOTIATORS for settlement. Works just fine. It's just not been properly proposed and analyzed quite yet... Maybe soon it will be...

Currently the Emirate Plan (Dr. Mordechai Kedar) is less likely an option.

There're more Arab clans on the ground preferring full Israeli sovereignty,
rather than speaking of self-government.

Eventually many realize there're 2 options - either they themselves overthrow Hamas and PA with the support of other Arab states, and position themselves as partners in mutual regional development, or stay an irrelevant obstacle to be tossed the cards accordingly.

Their decision is based on 1000s of years of NOT trusting large federations or govts.. The Emirate plan gives them the ability to SELF govern as they wish without defaulting to a MINORITY Israel political coalition.. Don't think that would last long.. In America -- we RESERVED all the other rights to the states to decide to PREVENT "one size fits all" govt edicts...

And I think the friction would be constant in an "absorbed" solution... ALTHOUGH, the relatively HIGH level of living for Palis would CERTAINLY IMPROVE as citizens.. And that may be WHY the "Pali on street" might be enticed to be a citizen of Israel..

Hate to say it but Dr. Kedar plan is EXCELLENT in terms of the MODEL... But it purposely leaves out creating a COMMERCE and TRADE option that is fair to the Palestinians or the NEIGHBORING Arab countries for that matter...

Still convinced with the tighter bonds between Israel and Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, ect -- this NEEDS to be a regional solution with cooperation on MANY things.. Not just getting the Palis hooked up in commerce with the rest of the world...

That's the part I'm pitching... And INTERESTINGLY, Jared Kuschner's (trump admin) plan fell on its face BECAUSE he only focused on "economic development" for the region and NOT SOLVING the governance/representation issues.. Don't think Palis are more interested in 5G Cell service than they are in what FLAG their police on the street are gonna wear..

Maybe getting some Pali City States/Emirates/Regional solution folks together in a room, there might be a more tasty solution....

I don't want to speculate too much about the Trump deal,
in 3 or less days we'll know.

The way You think is more long term, kinda natural stage of development, which can be achieved in the following decade. Not a matter of instant deals, and I don't think that what it's aiming to address in the current geopolitical situation.

But we may be both surprised.

The days of starting negotiations with a map are over.. Never worked, Never WILL work.. What is needed is a new design for that region.. One that brings fast and unexpected value to ALL the stakeholders.. Creating value out of mere land holdings..

Entrepreneurs understand this.. You take a swamp and build a DisneyWorld on it.. You cut a channel across narrowest part of Central America and change the world.. Everyone knows change happens slowly in the Mid East and there's usually a lot of destruction and false starts before something good happens..

But in this case, the futuristic vision is to take the area BACKWARDS several thousand years and RESTORE it as hub of commerce for the world....

 

[westwall]

Jews and Arabs will be fighting until the end of time. There can be no compromise. One will have to take over the other.

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created - why wouldn't they stop again?

Actually, they did.

Not as much, or I should say no more than others around them - there were long periods of relative peace, stability, prosperity.

When the Jews weren't allowed to be there.

 

[Coyote]

Jews and Arabs will be fighting until the end of time. There can be no compromise. One will have to take over the other.

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created - why wouldn't they stop again?

Actually, they did.

Not as much, or I should say no more than others around them - there were long periods of relative peace, stability, prosperity.

When the Jews weren't allowed to be there.

No, not true. There were times when Jews prospered there. Actually, they had more rights and opportunities than in the Christian nations.

 

[westwall]

Jews and Arabs will be fighting until the end of time. There can be no compromise. One will have to take over the other.

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created - why wouldn't they stop again?

Actually, they did.

Not as much, or I should say no more than others around them - there were long periods of relative peace, stability, prosperity.

When the Jews weren't allowed to be there.

No, not true. There were times when Jews prospered there. Actually, they had more rights and opportunities than in the Christian nations.

Sure, during the Seleucid Empire, and a tad during the Abbayid. But that is hundreds of years ago. How about the recent history. You know, the last 200 or so.

 

[Coyote]

They didn't fight that much prior to Israel being created - why wouldn't they stop again?

Actually, they did.

Not as much, or I should say no more than others around them - there were long periods of relative peace, stability, prosperity.

When the Jews weren't allowed to be there.

No, not true. There were times when Jews prospered there. Actually, they had more rights and opportunities than in the Christian nations.

Sure, during the Seleucid Empire, and a tad during the Abbayid. But that is hundreds of years ago. How about the recent history. You know, the last 200 or so.

I would say that in the last 200 years (up until WW2) Jews had kind of a sucky time int eh Christian world.

 

[Mindful]

The thing is, according to Israel's basic law, second class citizenship it's going to be.

A two-state solution is increasingly unlikely because of Israeli settlements on occupied territory, and the ramped up demolition of Palestinian homes and infrastructure to make more room for more Israeli settlements.

These two comments are simply false.

There is nothing in Israel's laws which make Arabs "second class citizens". Nor does Israel ever demolish Arab Palestinian homes or infrastructure and replace them with Jewish Israeli homes.

There is PLENTY to criticize Israel for. Why do people continue to post blatant lies? Oh. It would be because if they told the truth about Israel, it would be obvious that Israel, for all its faults, is actually one of the better States in the world as far as how it treats its citizens.

Israelis shouldn't even have to justify or defend their reasons to exist. I wonder why Gentiles assume the right to discuss what's right or wrong for someone else's country.

Maybe for the same reason non-gentiles do. I hear plenty of criticism of other nations on these boards by members who are not of the nationality or religion being discussed. Wonder why? Human nature?

Concerning Israel, it goes beyond criticism.

 

[Coyote]

The thing is, according to Israel's basic law, second class citizenship it's going to be.

A two-state solution is increasingly unlikely because of Israeli settlements on occupied territory, and the ramped up demolition of Palestinian homes and infrastructure to make more room for more Israeli settlements.

These two comments are simply false.

There is nothing in Israel's laws which make Arabs "second class citizens". Nor does Israel ever demolish Arab Palestinian homes or infrastructure and replace them with Jewish Israeli homes.

There is PLENTY to criticize Israel for. Why do people continue to post blatant lies? Oh. It would be because if they told the truth about Israel, it would be obvious that Israel, for all its faults, is actually one of the better States in the world as far as how it treats its citizens.

Israelis shouldn't even have to justify or defend their reasons to exist. I wonder why Gentiles assume the right to discuss what's right or wrong for someone else's country.

Maybe for the same reason non-gentiles do. I hear plenty of criticism of other nations on these boards by members who are not of the nationality or religion being discussed. Wonder why? Human nature?

Concerning Israel, it goes beyond criticism.

Concerning Israel, sometimes honest criticism is labeled as something else.

Israel is not above criticism. It can't have it's cake and eat it too.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

 

[Coyote]

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

Does it matter what nationality that falls under?

The rights of refugees pertain only to those actually expelled.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

Does it matter what nationality that falls under?

The rights of refugees pertain only to those actually expelled.

That is not my decision to make.

That is not true.

 

[Coyote]

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

Does it matter what nationality that falls under?

The rights of refugees pertain only to those actually expelled.

That is not my decision to make.

That is not true.

On the first - just asking your opinion.