What if Israel Annexes the West Bank and Lets Palestinians Vote

[toastman]

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

Right of the refugees? That's NEVER going to happen. You know that Tinmore ...

 

[P F Tinmore]

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

Does it matter what nationality that falls under?

The rights of refugees pertain only to those actually expelled.

That is not my decision to make.

That is not true.

On the first - just asking your opinion.

That is something the people living there will have to decide. I have no opinion on that.

 

[flacaltenn]

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???


Diff is that majority of Palis APPROVED of Jordan's annex.. Got $$Bills in infrastructure and political control of the WB cities... But Yasser Arafat screwed that relationship by starting a literary invasion of the Kings capitol and got his ass KICKED out of there..

Was it then an illegal Jordanian occupation of the West Bank for about 15 years before the 67 war? And WhereTF were you when you LEARNED that Jordan was "occupying" it.???

I never even heard the word "Palestine" until 20-30 years ago.

Not really into playing games about this anymore.. Only interested in solutions.. And if you can't simply acknowledge that Jordan was the previous "occupier" of Palestine for 20 years or so -- that's your problem, not mine...

And anyway, that statement is blatantly false unless you're so ignorant on this that you don't know what PLO stands for....

I know. It was just before my time.
True it was occupied not annexed.

IF Palestinians could economically and culturally flourish - would you be happy with that result?

Sure, but the Palestinians would have to farm their own land and work in their own factories. They would have to control their own imports and exports. Control their own trade and tourism. And the rights of the refugees would have to be respected.

That's not even true TODAY that "Palestinians have to work in their factories"... LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

What we are suggesting here WOULD let them control their own trade and tourism.. In fact, it would astronomically increase their ability to freely trade with the world...

But "rights of refugees" would ALSO be up to them and don't think that's a simple issue as you make it out to be... Probably NOT every self-declared Palestinian would be taken in by EITHER Israel or the West Bank leadership... It's just a reality...

 

[flacaltenn]

The thing is, according to Israel's basic law, second class citizenship it's going to be.

A two-state solution is increasingly unlikely because of Israeli settlements on occupied territory, and the ramped up demolition of Palestinian homes and infrastructure to make more room for more Israeli settlements.

These two comments are simply false.

There is nothing in Israel's laws which make Arabs "second class citizens". Nor does Israel ever demolish Arab Palestinian homes or infrastructure and replace them with Jewish Israeli homes.

There is PLENTY to criticize Israel for. Why do people continue to post blatant lies? Oh. It would be because if they told the truth about Israel, it would be obvious that Israel, for all its faults, is actually one of the better States in the world as far as how it treats its citizens.

Israelis shouldn't even have to justify or defend their reasons to exist. I wonder why Gentiles assume the right to discuss what's right or wrong for someone else's country.

Maybe for the same reason non-gentiles do. I hear plenty of criticism of other nations on these boards by members who are not of the nationality or religion being discussed. Wonder why? Human nature?

Concerning Israel, it goes beyond criticism.

Concerning Israel, sometimes honest criticism is labeled as something else.

Israel is not above criticism. It can't have it's cake and eat it too.

Not above criticism by Israelis even.. Every successful FREE country needs balance. Major media in Israel is extremely critical of the ongoing occupation.. That's a healthy thing..

 

[P F Tinmore]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

 

[Mindful]

The thing is, according to Israel's basic law, second class citizenship it's going to be.

A two-state solution is increasingly unlikely because of Israeli settlements on occupied territory, and the ramped up demolition of Palestinian homes and infrastructure to make more room for more Israeli settlements.

These two comments are simply false.

There is nothing in Israel's laws which make Arabs "second class citizens". Nor does Israel ever demolish Arab Palestinian homes or infrastructure and replace them with Jewish Israeli homes.

There is PLENTY to criticize Israel for. Why do people continue to post blatant lies? Oh. It would be because if they told the truth about Israel, it would be obvious that Israel, for all its faults, is actually one of the better States in the world as far as how it treats its citizens.

Israelis shouldn't even have to justify or defend their reasons to exist. I wonder why Gentiles assume the right to discuss what's right or wrong for someone else's country.

Maybe for the same reason non-gentiles do. I hear plenty of criticism of other nations on these boards by members who are not of the nationality or religion being discussed. Wonder why? Human nature?

Concerning Israel, it goes beyond criticism.

Concerning Israel, sometimes honest criticism is labeled as something else.

Israel is not above criticism. It can't have it's cake and eat it too.

And that's the thing; I've not seen any 'honest' criticism of Israel, so far on these boards at any rate. It's usually tainted with contempt and the denial of existence, with an infusion of lurid use of language, a la Old Europe for instance.

And the cake. A fragile cake, still fighting for its own right to actually be there.

 

[flacaltenn]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

 

[Mindful]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

How do you explain the millionaire mansions, Mercedes, swimming pools, and Fillipino maids? I've seen them for myself.

 

[Shusha]

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Is that true? There are many semi-autonomous, semi-self-governing territories in the world that are quite satisfactorily prosperous despite being "subordinate" to their sovereigns.

 

[westwall]

Actually, they did.

Not as much, or I should say no more than others around them - there were long periods of relative peace, stability, prosperity.

When the Jews weren't allowed to be there.

No, not true. There were times when Jews prospered there. Actually, they had more rights and opportunities than in the Christian nations.

Sure, during the Seleucid Empire, and a tad during the Abbayid. But that is hundreds of years ago. How about the recent history. You know, the last 200 or so.

I would say that in the last 200 years (up until WW2) Jews had kind of a sucky time int eh Christian world.

They had a sucky time ALL OVER THE WORLD.

C'mon, you can admit that, can't you?

 

[Mindful]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

 

[P F Tinmore]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

OK, but working for foreign companies should not be their economic model. And besides, where would those who owned farms work?

 

[flacaltenn]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

We need to start a go fund me and SEND Tinmore to the West Bank for a vacation... I think the convos would get more interesting after the trip... I can recommend a couple places to visit... But NO BUS TOURS from Israel OR the West Bank.. Needs to just mingle in the markets and take in the restaurants and culture a bit...

 

[Mindful]

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Is that true? There are many semi-autonomous, semi-self-governing territories in the world that are quite satisfactorily prosperous despite being "subordinate" to their sovereigns.

The German enclave in Belgium being one such example.

The area was known as Eupen-Malmedy, and is now called the East Canton.

 

[Mindful]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

We need to start a go fund me and SEND Tinmore to the West Bank for a vacation... I think the convos would get more interesting after the trip... I can recommend a couple places to visit... But NO BUS TOURS from Israel OR the West Bank.. Needs to just mingle in the markets and take in the restaurants and culture a bit...

He'd learn a lot from the excavations and archeological digs.

Jericho's quite nice, in the Spring. Or at least it was, till Arafat paraded into Ramallah, on his Trojan Horse.

 

[P F Tinmore]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

We need to start a go fund me and SEND Tinmore to the West Bank for a vacation... I think the convos would get more interesting after the trip... I can recommend a couple places to visit... But NO BUS TOURS from Israel OR the West Bank.. Needs to just mingle in the markets and take in the restaurants and culture a bit...

That would be cool. Nabi Saheh and Tent of Nations would be my first stops.

Where would you recommend?

 

[Mindful]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

We need to start a go fund me and SEND Tinmore to the West Bank for a vacation... I think the convos would get more interesting after the trip... I can recommend a couple places to visit... But NO BUS TOURS from Israel OR the West Bank.. Needs to just mingle in the markets and take in the restaurants and culture a bit...

That would be cool. Nabi Saheh and Tent of Nations would be my first stops.

Where would you recommend?

You can't expect Flaca to be your tour guide.

Try these: Palestine Society of Tourism & Travel Agents

 

[rylah]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

OK, but working for foreign companies should not be their economic model. And besides, where would those who owned farms work?

Trade and employment with foreign business is an essential aspect of modern economy.
Farming is unfortunately becoming less and less sustainable in the broad sense,
and especially given the tiny land mass.

That said, Israel is becoming a world leader in the transformation towards modern urbanized agriculture technologies. It's a huge business with great potential, no less than the High-Tech industry.

If you want the world economy to return to the 7th century just for the Arabs to "feel comfortable",
this won't happen. They have to be competent in the real world.

 

[rylah]

LARGEST source of income in the West Bank is from HIGHLY SKILLED Palestinians taking in BIG bucks from working in Israel...

They will never be prosperous if they are subordinate to Israel.

Palis in the West Bank are TODAY more prosperous than most of the rest of the Arab world.. Declared "middle class" in comparison to the world population by the World Bank.. Lots of wealth and money and infrastructure in the West Bank that goes with middle class status.. They have their own stock exchange, universities and sports clubs..

Some of the housing there rivals the US middle class standards...

It certainly does.

We need to start a go fund me and SEND Tinmore to the West Bank for a vacation... I think the convos would get more interesting after the trip... I can recommend a couple places to visit... But NO BUS TOURS from Israel OR the West Bank.. Needs to just mingle in the markets and take in the restaurants and culture a bit...

That would be cool. Nabi Saheh and Tent of Nations would be my first stops.

Where would you recommend?

Let me correct you, the first stops will be:
Kfar Kassem, Hars, Salafit, Farrakhah, Qarawat Beni Zaid and Kfar aSa'ana.

And that will be enough to see the ridiculous disparity between the media coverage of the average prosperous wealthy villages and a dysfunctional Hamas hub, where people instead of working, entirely rely on grants from foreign governments for propaganda provocations.

Near that is a village called Peduel, where there's a small children playground on the hill called "The Country's Balcony". There's a big wooden swing, where on a clear day one can see with a naked eye the entire width of the country, with Tel-Aviv on the Mediterranean coast in front, and when turning to the opposite direction the Jordan valley.

 

[rylah]

The question being asked here is not, "How can we prevent Israel from abusing Arabs?" The question is, "In the face of a hostile and violent minority population, how should Israel respond to acts of violence, threats of violence and a culture of violence and hostility?"

Is the answer expulsion? Its a bigger question than just "what to do with individuals who commit acts of terror". Its a question of managing that hostile culture.

Oww Oww.. If I was a little more naive I could answer all that.. And I'd say ---

You make their lives so secure and prosperous, and start appreciating them as neighbors that those thoughts never cross their minds and THEY start hating the "agitators" who would destroy that bliss and opportunity FOR them as much as Israelis do....

OK -- well maybe I AM a bit naive.. But THAT is what's happening right now with Israel/Arab relations in general... The Arab neighbors to Israel are beginning to realize that Israel is a reliable and valuable neighbor.. That they only want to live their lives in peace in their own boundaries.. A lot of that stems from the need for mutual defense in a tough neighborhood as ISIS, Al Queda, and Iran have demonstrated.. But furthermore, Israel is the nexus for all the ancient Arab/Jewish trade routes in that area.. A fact that I use to pitch my plan for a new age Palestine Trade Route...

As an example of that, while I was working on this concept last year, rylah sent me this news that MIRRORS the principle "novel" feature of the plan... Israel has offered to CONNECT Jordan RAIL routes with Saudi thru existing rail routes in Egypt. Thus giving SEVERAL Arab neighbors access to Israeli ports for international commerce...

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israel-plans-rail-link-to-saudi-via-jordan-pa-1.436238

Transport and Intelligence Affairs Minister Yisrael Katz publicly presented his “Tracks for Regional Peace” initiative this week, which has already been shared with the Trump administration and other allies of Israel, including a number of Arab states.

The plan is to connect largely existing rail infrastructure in Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia via a new link between the Jezreel Valley and the border crossing to Jordan near Bet Shean. This would to allow goods trains to run all the way from the Persian Gulf to the ports of Ashdod and Haifa.

"Anti-muslim" my ass Olde Europe !! This is the same BOLD outreach that I'm proposing to put the Pali city centers on a CONNECTED "super highway" that runs along either side of the River Jordan from the Dead Sea to the North of Israel.. Same concept of creating win-win situations for an ENTIRE REGION...

(OK -- it's NOT a "super" highway because of limited land availability.. But it IS more than sufficient to run a massive amount of tractor trailers and commercial traffic)

This would make Pali Emirates the exact CENTER of action for commerce and trade in the entire Levant and beyond... And the Palis would prosper even on the limited land that they have sovereignty over and give THEM a leg up on connectivity to the world and themselves...

Israel is a valuable ally when Iran threatens Syria, Iraq or when ISIS showed up in the Sinai... And the Palis KNOW that defense of Palestine means they need the whole NEIGHBORHOOD to protect their gain of freedom...

This is worth working on.. And I'll continue... But what started as a "too long for print" magazine article has turned into a "policy paper" for diplomacy.. And along the line, I've been learning from experts in this area.. And I have no reason to doubt it's a valuable model for settling an occupation that's now over 50 years old...

I'd suggest contacting Dr. Guy Bechor.