What Offense Did the Ukrainian People Commit That Caused Them to Be Bombed into Oblivion by The Russian Military at the Command of Putin?

[TruthNotBS]

Yea isn't it funny how everyone thinks you are full of crap?

 

[AntonToo]

And when the people in a country masquerading as democracy can't afford all that, this country brings down the very idea of democracy and makes authoritarian regimes like China and Russia look more preferably, at least for people in these countries.

Did you just seriously say that living standard is better in Russia or China...to United States?

Holy shit you are out to lunch. Completely fucking clueless.

 

[ESay]

Did you just seriously say that living standard is better in Russia or China...to United States?

Holy shit you are out to lunch. Completely fucking clueless.

First of all, what I wanted to say is that the Russians didn't live better in whole of their history than they live now. And they are ready to support Putin for that.

Second, a standard of living is a very individual thing. It varies widely even in the scale of one region, not to say about such big countries as the US and Russia as a whole.

To talk about a living standard, we should decide what main factors it includes. Tell me 3-5 main points that comprise a living standard.

 

[AntonToo]

First of all, what I wanted to say is that the Russians didn't live better in whole of their history than they live now. And they are ready to support Putin for that.

Second, a standard of living is a very individual thing. It varies widely even in the scale of one region, not to say about such big countries as the US and Russia as a whole.

To talk about a living standard, we should decide what main factors it includes. Tell me 3-5 main points that comprise a living standard.

Umm…INCOME?

Median household income - is much much higher in US even with cost of living adjustments than in Russia or China.

Life expectancy in Russia is also significantly shorter.

 

[AntonToo]

First of all, what I wanted to say is that the Russians didn't live better in whole of their history than they live now. And they are ready to support Putin for that.

On this point specifically - ignorant people support Putin for that.

Real income in Russia is first and foremost tied to energy export profits, little else.

Real income in Russia topped out in 2014 - it hasn’t improved at all since their invasion of Crimea resulted in sanctions that were one of main causes of a 2 year recession.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yea yea sure - no real democracies according to you.

I rest my case.

liberal democracies at their core stripped of all their rhetoric and theatrics are nothing more than a class
dictatorship and no amount of reforms can change this reality. True democracy is the rule of the people over both their government and economy. Without these two spheres being under the heel of the people, the government will always serve the vested interests of the wealthy capitalist class to the detriment of the working class (those who need to rent themselves to capitalists/to the owners of the means of production). There's no democracy in America, we're strictly a plutocratic oligarchy ruled by big business enterprises.

Your so-called "liberal democracy" is a class dictatorship, specifically a dictatorship of the capitalist/business class (the employer/exploiter class who own all of the mines, factories..etc, the facilities and machinery of mass production). When I say, "class dictatorship" I'm not talking about some conspiratorial dictatorship where a
secret cabal of capitalists meet up every Wednesday night and and set the agenda for the week, what I'm talking about is a very rational dictatorship that is founded on a political system that lends representation accordingly to those of wealth and capital.

What this implies is that individual capitalists are free to use their wealth and capital to pursue their material interests through the political system, hence there's no need for mass collusion across the entire class, just a rational pursuit of class interests. These avenues of influence are used to ensure the state ultimately protects and
advances the interests of the capitalist class regardless of what the majority, namely, the working class, wants. The capitalist class is about 6% of the population and the working class is approximately 94% of the public.

The will of the capitalist class is imposed on the general public, and that's why we can have the overwhelming majority of the people, support this or that policy and not have it pass or even up for a vote. This is why we can have the most unpopular pieces of legislation pass through our congress with absolute ease because it's not about whether or not the majority (i.e. the working class) supports it, it's a question of whether or not the capitalist class supports it. So we're not living in a democracy here in America, it's a plutocracy. Period.

The capitalist class is not a hive mind, there are genuine disagreements between varying factions of the ruling capitalist class, and debates, although restricted to a very narrow range of ideas. What unites the members of the capitalist elites, as a socioeconomic class are their fundamental class interests that are first and foremost the preservation of private ownership over the means of mass production.

A big debate right now among American, big money, wealthy capitalists, is around the question of how to
deal with the growing discontent within the masses. One faction of the capitalist class, albeit a small and unpopular one, argues, "You know we might have went a little too far with neoliberalism how about we just throw some more crumbs at the people and maybe they'll shut the fuck up" vs a very popular faction within the capitalist class that says " How about we just distract or brainwash the idiot working-class, with some nonsense and we don't have to change anything".

The question that remains of course is if this is a class dictatorship why waste your time putting on a show of democracy, what's the point? The point is legitimacy. It's a lot easier to maintain this dictatorship when everyone is convinced the system is democratic and they really hold the power. With our fake democracy, all the energy and effort for change within the populace is channeled through a capitalist-controlled electoral system that neutralizes anything the capitalist class doesn't approve of.

What's really important to note here is that these are nonviolent methods of subverting the people's will by cultivating a false facade of democratic legitimacy that channels, the American public's sense of political liberty and power, into a worthless electoral process, that always serves the capitalist class, more often than not, to the detriment of the American people (i.e. the working-class).

The capitalist class that controls the media and many other important institutions, including the government, with its wealth, encourages the people to channel their energy through the electoral process, non-violently taming their will. The last thing the wealthy ruling elites want is the people taking up revolutionary methods of
change because the only way to deal with the revolutionary movement is overt state subversion and these overt
displays of violence are not popular and are only going to radicalize more of the populace against their capitalist masters.

Adam Smith the father of capitalism, called capitalists "masters":

"What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine (To form labor unions) in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labor.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine (In the form of chambers of commerce, industry-specific associations, and guilds, super-PACs, non-profit front organizations/NGOs, armies of lobbyists bribing politicians in the halls of government, think tanks staffed by Ivy league analysts and scholars who write the papers and legislation that they hand to the lobbyists, to give to their cronies in the US Congress) much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen.

We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long-run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him, but the necessity is not so immediate.

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and every where in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is every where a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals." (Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII)

Emphasis is mine.

Master master master...master master...Do you like having a master Anton?

To ensure the stability of our capitalist class dictatorship you need the people (the working class) to believe the system is legitimate and "democratic", steering people (the working class) away from revolution and keeping explicit state violence to a minimum.

Anton do you understand the role paid professional lobbyists play in writing our laws, swaying the
votes of public officials? Do you realize how expensive it is to run for public office in this country? To run for office, you either have to be incredibly wealthy like Trump (You have to be of the capitalist ruling class), or you must subject yourself to the interests of the capitalist class (You have to prioritize the needs and wants of the rich capitalist masters).

Once in office there is an incredibly strong incentive to play nice with capitalists because after public office they're the ones who can provide you with a lucrative and comfy private-sector position and can grant you a life of abundance and ease. Political participation itself outside of voting every couple of years is an incredibly
expensive and time-consuming endeavor. It's a luxury only those from backgrounds of wealth and capital can afford.

Anton, you cannot have a genuine democratic society under capitalism when the means of production,
the means of subsistence, on which everyone is dependent, is in the hands of a small, wealthy class of exploiters, whose only concern is profits. This is why the only form of property that should exist in society is personal property, for personal use (your house, car, your personal computer/s, and other electrical devices and appliances, your personal library of science fiction novels, your AR15 collection, your fruit of the looms, the plot of land your grandma gave you, where you grow your own food..etc), not private property that is used to exploit others for profit (mines, factories, the facilities and machinery of mass-production, all of the expensive industrial robots, artificial intelligence - supercomputers/quantum computers).

The means of production should be owned by the working class, essentially, by everyone, together. Only the collective ownership of the means of production should be permitted, and by doing this we can have a true democracy. Democracy in politics and in the workplace. To have a democratic society where the
people truly rule themselves you cannot have just the political sphere democratic but the production of goods and services, and the economy, run as a dictatorship.

The means of production must be under democratic control as well. The economy is run by all in service to
all, not private profits, not for petty tyrants. The economy is the production and distribution, of goods and services, functioning and working, to house all people, to feed all people, to educate all people, to provide healthcare to everyone, to make sure everyone can actualize their fullest potential, having access to all of the resources that they need to live a rewarding, meaningful, purposeful, beautiful and happy life.

This is the project of socialism, to bring the government and economy under the rule of the people. Democratizing the economy to bring about a society in which the people rule themselves.

You must understand the root contradiction between capitalism and democracy. How are you to have a democratic society when the economy is privately owned and run by elites whose primary objective is to turn a profit, even when its to the detriment of their community and country? The wealthy ruling class owns the media, our local, state, and federal governments, all of the financial institutions, and the natural resources and major centers of economic power. How do you pretend for the American people, the working-class, to ever have any control over their government, under such conditions? It's impossible.

All we have is the illusion, the facade of democracy. That's how the ruling class maintains order and stability, staying in power, without having to crack skulls with their state. They brainwash the masses (their employees, the working class) into compliance with their exploitation, including all of the unnecessary austerities imposed upon them, by the capitalist ruling class. Anton, there's no real democracy here, just the dictatorship of the capitalist wealthy class, a plutocratic oligarchal "soft" tyranny, the type of tyranny that boils you alive slowly, allowing you to remain in the pot, while you're cooked and prepared as a meal for your capitalist masters.

 

[AntonToo]

liberal democracies at their core stripped of all their rhetoric and theatrics are nothing more than a class
dictatorship and no amount of reforms can change this reality. True democracy is the rule of the people over both their government and economy. Without these two spheres being under the heel of the people, the government will always serve the vested interests of the wealthy capitalist class to the detriment of the working class (those who need to rent themselves to capitalists/to the owners of the means of production). There's no democracy in America, we're strictly a plutocratic oligarchy ruled by big business enterprises.

Your so-called "liberal democracy" is a class dictatorship, specifically a dictatorship of the capitalist/business class (the employer/exploiter class who own all of the mines, factories..etc, the facilities and machinery of mass production). When I say, "class dictatorship" I'm not talking about some conspiratorial dictatorship where a
secret cabal of capitalists meet up every Wednesday night and and set the agenda for the week, what I'm talking about is a very rational dictatorship that is founded on a political system that lends representation accordingly to those of wealth and capital.

What this implies is that individual capitalists are free to use their wealth and capital to pursue their material interests through the political system, hence there's no need for mass collusion across the entire class, just a rational pursuit of class interests. These avenues of influence are used to ensure the state ultimately protects and
advances the interests of the capitalist class regardless of what the majority, namely, the working class, wants. The capitalist class is about 6% of the population and the working class is approximately 94% of the public.

The will of the capitalist class is imposed on the general public, and that's why we can have the overwhelming majority of the people, support this or that policy and not have it pass or even up for a vote. This is why we can have the most unpopular pieces of legislation pass through our congress with absolute ease because it's not about whether or not the majority (i.e. the working class) supports it, it's a question of whether or not the capitalist class supports it. So we're not living in a democracy here in America, it's a plutocracy. Period.

The capitalist class is not a hive mind, there are genuine disagreements between varying factions of the ruling capitalist class, and debates, although restricted to a very narrow range of ideas. What unites the members of the capitalist elites, as a socioeconomic class are their fundamental class interests that are first and foremost the preservation of private ownership over the means of mass production.

A big debate right now among American, big money, wealthy capitalists, is around the question of how to
deal with the growing discontent within the masses. One faction of the capitalist class, albeit a small and unpopular one, argues, "You know we might have went a little too far with neoliberalism how about we just throw some more crumbs at the people and maybe they'll shut the fuck up" vs a very popular faction within the capitalist class that says " How about we just distract or brainwash the idiot working-class, with some nonsense and we don't have to change anything".

The question that remains of course is if this is a class dictatorship why waste your time putting on a show of democracy, what's the point? The point is legitimacy. It's a lot easier to maintain this dictatorship when everyone is convinced the system is democratic and they really hold the power. With our fake democracy, all the energy and effort for change within the populace is channeled through a capitalist-controlled electoral system that neutralizes anything the capitalist class doesn't approve of.

What's really important to note here is that these are nonviolent methods of subverting the people's will by cultivating a false facade of democratic legitimacy that channels, the American public's sense of political liberty and power, into a worthless electoral process, that always serves the capitalist class, more often than not, to the detriment of the American people (i.e. the working-class).

The capitalist class that controls the media and many other important institutions, including the government, with its wealth, encourages the people to channel their energy through the electoral process, non-violently taming their will. The last thing the wealthy ruling elites want is the people taking up revolutionary methods of
change because the only way to deal with the revolutionary movement is overt state subversion and these overt
displays of violence are not popular and are only going to radicalize more of the populace against their capitalist masters.

Adam Smith the father of capitalism, called capitalists "masters":

"What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine (To form labor unions) in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labor.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine (In the form of chambers of commerce, industry-specific associations, and guilds, super-PACs, non-profit front organizations/NGOs, armies of lobbyists bribing politicians in the halls of government, think tanks staffed by Ivy league analysts and scholars who write the papers and legislation that they hand to the lobbyists, to give to their cronies in the US Congress) much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen.

We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year without employment. In the long-run the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him, but the necessity is not so immediate.

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and every where in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is every where a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals." (Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII)

Emphasis is mine.

Master master master...master master...Do you like having a master Anton?

To ensure the stability of our capitalist class dictatorship you need the people (the working class) to believe the system is legitimate and "democratic", steering people (the working class) away from revolution and keeping explicit state violence to a minimum.

Anton do you understand the role paid professional lobbyists play in writing our laws, swaying the
votes of public officials? Do you realize how expensive it is to run for public office in this country? To run for office, you either have to be incredibly wealthy like Trump (You have to be of the capitalist ruling class), or you must subject yourself to the interests of the capitalist class (You have to prioritize the needs and wants of the rich capitalist masters).

Once in office there is an incredibly strong incentive to play nice with capitalists because after public office they're the ones who can provide you with a lucrative and comfy private-sector position and can grant you a life of abundance and ease. Political participation itself outside of voting every couple of years is an incredibly
expensive and time-consuming endeavor. It's a luxury only those from backgrounds of wealth and capital can afford.

Anton, you cannot have a genuine democratic society under capitalism when the means of production,
the means of subsistence, on which everyone is dependent, is in the hands of a small, wealthy class of exploiters, whose only concern is profits. This is why the only form of property that should exist in society is personal property, for personal use (your house, car, your personal computer/s, and other electrical devices and appliances, your personal library of science fiction novels, your AR15 collection, your fruit of the looms, the plot of land your grandma gave you, where you grow your own food..etc), not private property that is used to exploit others for profit (mines, factories, the facilities and machinery of mass-production, all of the expensive industrial robots, artificial intelligence - supercomputers/quantum computers).

The means of production should be owned by the working class, essentially, by everyone, together. Only the collective ownership of the means of production should be permitted, and by doing this we can have a true democracy. Democracy in politics and in the workplace. To have a democratic society where the
people truly rule themselves you cannot have just the political sphere democratic but the production of goods and services, and the economy, run as a dictatorship.

The means of production must be under democratic control as well. The economy is run by all in service to
all, not private profits, not for petty tyrants. The economy is the production and distribution, of goods and services, functioning and working, to house all people, to feed all people, to educate all people, to provide healthcare to everyone, to make sure everyone can actualize their fullest potential, having access to all of the resources that they need to live a rewarding, meaningful, purposeful, beautiful and happy life.

This is the project of socialism, to bring the government and economy under the rule of the people. Democratizing the economy to bring about a society in which the people rule themselves.

You must understand the root contradiction between capitalism and democracy. How are you to have a democratic society when the economy is privately owned and run by elites whose primary objective is to turn a profit, even when its to the detriment of their community and country? The wealthy ruling class owns the media, our local, state, and federal governments, all of the financial institutions, and the natural resources and major centers of economic power. How do you pretend for the American people, the working-class, to ever have any control over their government, under such conditions? It's impossible.

All we have is the illusion, the facade of democracy. That's how the ruling class maintains order and stability, staying in power, without having to crack skulls with their state. They brainwash the masses (their employees, the working class) into compliance with their exploitation, including all of the unnecessary austerities imposed upon them, by the capitalist ruling class. Anton, there's no real democracy here, just the dictatorship of the capitalist wealthy class, a plutocratic oligarchal "soft" tyranny, the type of tyranny that boils you alive slowly, allowing you to remain in the pot, while you're cooked and prepared as a meal for your capitalist masters.

The funniest thing is that you actually think anyone's going to read your half-baked socialist menifestos past first few lines before their eyes start to roll.

Bad news nutbag, you are 100 years too late with all that bullshit. The world tried it and said NO THANKS! This "workers own all means of production" garbage doesn't work. Private ownership and enterprise are fundamental economic freedoms and you are in for a lifetime of people rolling eyes at your stupid socio-economic fantasies.

 

[ESay]

Umm…INCOME?

Median household income - is much much higher in US even with cost of living adjustments than in Russia or China.

Life expectancy in Russia is also significantly shorter.

And how a living standard of an average Russian working for an average salary in say Smolensk differs from a living standard of an average American working for an average salary in say Madison, Wisconsin?

 

[TruthNotBS]

The funniest thing is that you actually think anyone's going to read your half-baked socialist menifestos past first few lines before their eyes start to roll.

Bad news nutbag, you are 100 years too late with all that bullshit. The world tried it and said NO THANKS! This "workers own all means of production" garbage doesn't work. Private ownership and enterprise are fundamental economic freedoms and you are in for a lifetime of people rolling eyes at your stupid socio-economic fantasies.

What's even funnier is that you actually think I wrote that to be read here, by you, or to convince you of anything. Socialism is the future, thanks to advanced automation and artificial intelligence. The end of capitalism and the beginning of the socialist age of production is going to begin soon, so you might as well join us now.

 

[AntonToo]

And how a living standard of an average Russian working for an average salary in say Smolensk differs from a living standard of an average American working for an average salary in say Madison, Wisconsin?

…how ridiculous.

I’m not your fetch dog, go look it up yourself if that very specific comparison interests you

But any sane people compare countries by looking at overall macro data, not cherry pick specific towns or cities.

 

[AntonToo]

Socialism is the future

 

[ESay]

…how ridiculous.

I’m not your fetch dog, go look it up yourself if that very specific comparison interests you

But any sane people compare countries by looking at overall macro data, not cherry pick specific towns or cities.

Nah, I don't want to compare overall macro data or some macro huge figures. I want to compare how this 'macro' affects the lives of common people.

Okay, you didn't want to talk about some vague comparisons, so let's talk about more exact examples. Can you tell me how your life in the US differs from the life of an average Russian? Income/spending wise I mean. What you can afford that an average Russian can't?

 

[AntonToo]

Nah, I don't want to compare overall macro data or some macro huge figures. I want to compare how this 'macro' affects the lives of common people.

What is there to respond with to such ignorance of how economic questions are aproached? I'll try some more:

Macroeconomic data can show income of an average household or person in a country (median data shows 50th percentile income).

What other standard do you want to use and why?

 

[ESay]

What is there to respond with to such ignorance of how economic questions are aproached? I'll try some more:

Macroeconomic data can show income of an average household or person in a country (median data shows 50th percentile income).

What other standard do you want to use and why?

I want to use a standard called 'personal experience', because it is more interesting and more accurate. So, any attempts to answer my questions?

 

[AntonToo]

I want to use a standard called 'personal experience', because it is more interesting and more accurate. So, any attempts to answer my questions?

There are 300 million+ "personal experiences" in United States.

Which one would be to your liking sir?

Oh wait I know, how about we take a look at a personal income experience of a 50th percentile earner in United States? Does that sound good to you? Because thats a common standard of personal income comparison between countries and exactly what I'm talking about already while you are wasting my time with your half-thoughts.

 

[TruthNotBS]

When you finish laughing, answer this question. The capitalists don't need to hire you anymore, what are you going to do to generate an income and purchase the goods and services that you need to live? First finish laughing, it's great that you're releasing all of that stress from trying to defend capitalism in the 21st century (you're like someone trying to defend chattel slavery and feudalism in the 20th century), and then answer that simple question. Capitalists don't need you anymore, how will you purchase products and services?

 

[ESay]

There are 300 million+ "personal experiences" in United States.

Which one would be to your liking sir?

Oh wait I know, how about we take a look at a personal income experience of a 50th percentile earner in United States? Does that sound good to you? Because thats a common standard of personal income comparison between countries and exactly what I'm talking about already while you are wasting my time with your half-thoughts.

Antoshka, I would like to hear YOUR experience. And I already say this for a third time. I don't believe you are slow enough to not figure that out already. You seem just to not have enough guts.

 

[AntonToo]

Antoshka, I would like to hear YOUR experience. And I already say this for a third time. I don't believe you are slow enough to not figure that out already. You seem just to not have enough guts.

You didn't say that.

But now that you have - I came to US with nothing, lived on basic means, went to school, got a job and now live a very comfortable upper-middle class life.

As far as I'm concerned there is a very straight forward path for anyone with a capable head on their shoulders to live well in America. Pick a professional direction that is in demand and suits your personal strenghs, get the education, live well. Thats why people try to come here.

 

[ESay]

You didn't say that.

But now that you have - I came to US with nothing, lived on modest means, went to school, got a job and now live a very comfortable upper-middle class life.

As far as I'm concerned it's very straight forward path for anyone with a head on their shoulders to live well in America.

Yes, I did. And I asked a more specific question - what can you afford that an average Russian getting an average salary can not?

 

[AntonToo]

Yes, I did. And I asked a more specific question - what can you afford that an average Russian getting an average salary can not?

Nice private house, a few premium cars in the garage, foreign vacation trips, regular gourmet restraunt outtings, comfortable retirement savings?

You know...stuff money buys. I keep getting an impression like I'm talking to someone born yesterday