Why do you think this country needs more invested in the Military.

[rightwinger]

You are a total moron

I'm correct. That's what I am.

No, seriously
Read some of your posts

You are a moron

 

[9thIDdoc]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

Wrong. No Nation can claim to be free while having slave armies. If the cause is just and the pay and benefits amount to more than slave wages conscription is not needed. It only becomes "necessary" when people, like some on here, demand the military give them something for next to nothing.

 

[sakinago]

I don't see it personally, it's not even logical or conscienable when the increased funding is from money that is needed to help the needy in this country.

More money just thrown at it noooo, but I would like to cut some programs and add to programs that really really matter. Like the f-22 program that should have never been stopped. There’s really nothing more important than air superiority in modern day warfare.

 

[9thIDdoc]

The thread is a fine example of the foolishness of American tightwads. Not that long ago we weren't actively fighting anybody so people demanded we cut military spending to the bone and past. Many bases were closed and many of our best service people were discharged. Recruits and privates are cheaper by the head than career soldiers and heaven forbid they be allowed to hang around long enough to retire. Aircraft, naval vessels, tanks, and armored vehicles can be expensive and require trained people to maintain. So we scraped or mothballed the vessels and planes and literally dumped many thousands of costly tanks and vehicles into the ocean.
And then we had the ME go hot and we suddenly needed those things that we had just thrown away. We didn't have enough warm bodies and and we certainly didn't have the experienced troops to train and lead them. We lost more than a few of our sons and daughters because of that bit of civilian foolishness. A shame that some folks just can't seem to learn from our mistakes.

 

[Spare_change]

Being the number one superpower in the world is expensive. Deal with it.

$700 billion a year

We would still be the number one superpower in the world at $300 billion a year

If you were a "buyer" for DoD, you would know that isn't even remotely true.What's the cost of a single soldier? A single Humvee? A single fighter aircraft?

 

[Spare_change]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

Someone once told me that you can't appreciate an item, until you had to pay for it.

We have whole generations who have not had to "pay" for what they have. They can't appreciate their freedoms - they just take them for granted. They can't appreciate America because they've never been anywhere else (well, except Cancun for Christmas break).

I agree --- though, I admit i would take it further. I believe that every man or woman (or whatever else is out there these days) should be required to serve a 2 year commitment to service. It doesn't have to be military - it can be as a garbage man, or a street sweeper, or paperwork filer, or whatever. One of those years, however, must be spent out of country. Then, and only then, will they appreciate the gifts they have been given.

 

[MikeK]

Wrong. No Nation can claim to be free while having slave armies. If the cause is just and the pay and benefits amount to more than slave wages conscription is not needed. It only becomes "necessary" when people, like some on here, demand the military give them something for next to nothing.

Nonsense. This Nation did very well with a conscript army for quite some time -- including the WW-II years. In fact we would have done a lot better if we had conscripted more before that war, because we would have had sufficient manpower to have short-stopped the Japanese in the Pacific. But it took us so long to conscript and train new recruits that the Japanese had time to dig in on Saipan, Tinian, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa.

And I never heard any G.I. who was drafted refer to his service as "slavery." That is a reference conceived by some draft-dodging punks who also like to say, "Thank you for your service --" which is short and sneaky for, "Better you than me."

 

[jbander]

Which begs the question

Why do we still have military bases in Germany?

Now you ask a fair question - why do we still have military bases in Germany?

For a moment, let's put aside our NATO commitment. Let's not talk about our promise to the people of Europe.

Instead, let's just talk about the direct military impact of those bases in Germany. There is an area in Germany called the Fulda Gap. It is the most geographically appropriate launching point of a Soviet incursion into Europe. Closing that door greatly complicates any attempt to attack Europe. Conversely, it is our most advantageous ground access point should we decide to invade Russia. So, the Soviets keep that door closed, as well. They commit troops and we commit troops - if we have a tank battalion there, they have to put a tank battalion there in response. If they have a tank battalion there, we have to put one there in response.

Sounds like a stand-off, doesn't it? EXCEPT - as you've pointed out, we spend about 14% of our federal expenditures on defense. Russia, on the other hand, spends about 21% on theirs - an unsustainable rate of expenditure. If you recall, Reagan's "Star Wars" initiative forced Russia to increase defense spending beyond its breaking point - and directly contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The same will hold true for the Putin regime. He will eventually go broke, spend too much trying to keep up, and be overthrown. Russia will go through another democratic evolution, and move closer to individual rights.

Now, back to NATO - we gave our word, we keep our word. Our support of NATO ensures the fealty of European countries - and just as importantly - European markets. Why do suppose it is that we don't have a military base in France, but so many in Germany?

Placing our troops in Germany - or anywhere else - is intrinsically cheaper than housing them in the US and sending them to the hot-spot of the day. What's the cost of a 50,000 acre military base in Germany compared to a 50,000 acre military base in California or South Carolina? What's the cost of maintaining 100,000 troops in South Korea compared to those same 100,000 in Nevada?

I get the chance to define stupid. I always like to do that. Especially when I can do it against the brain dead. Russia spends 70 billion a year on it's military. France, Britain, German, Italy ,Spain and Poland, spend 200 billion a year.
Now Russia would have to realize that in a matter of days another 1 trillion in military would start to be thrown at them.
So brain dead becomes the new world for stupid. You just have to laugh at their nonsense

Now we are getting to the truth

It has nothing to do with humanitarian peacekeeping and everything to do with protecting global corporate interests. We are spending $700 billion a year to protect those corporate interests......So why are we cutting corporate income taxes?

Should a soldier give up his life to protect corporate interests?

You don't know the difference between National and corporate interests?

That, my friend, is the question

There is no difference

Sez you. Most of us know better.

now he's getting down to his best argument, may I quote him "sez You" ROTFL

You stated: " Its all their in post 170." and that was a lie. So where exactly do you claim you asked your idiotic question?
And why still no attempt to answer mine? Too ignorant to attempt such?
You claim this Country has fought hundreds of wars. Untrue
You claim we fight wars to benefit some corporate bottom line. Untrue.
You claim to know what wars have been "necessary". Obviously untrue.
Are you unable or simply unwilling to defend the idiotic positions you've taken in this thread? Can you give us any reason what-so-ever why anyone should think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about?

Because you a lower form of humanity , no one owes you any answer to your question. especially that fact that you never asked a question for me to respond to, but I did ask you a question didn't I , I put you in your place and your trying to hide in the corner and trying to bullshit your way out of it, The point I want to make has been made completely anyway , your are just another lying bullshitter that supports and type a hate you can come up with, just like your hate party. By the way if anyone is interested simply go to post 170 , that's his first question to me because he couldn't handle my comment he is responding to. and he has bull shitted his way through this thread . Again go to post 170 it is all their.

 

[Spare_change]

... and the answer remains the same.

We need to re-prioritize our use of available tax dollars.

So, rob the tax payers then? Print the money and monetize the debt with an inflation tax? Do you know what happens when you do that? I'll tell you what happens. You continue to debase the dollar and you continue to wipe out the poor, middle class, and senior citizens. That's what.

We need to cut spending in unnecessary, and un-Constitutional, government programs, trim down ALL government agencies (to include DoD), and more effectively use the limited funds we have.

Your wars are unconstitutional. It is illegal aggression. It is iIlegal occupation. When's the last time congress actually made a declaration of war like the constitution states we do? And, again, the federal government doesn't have any funds. The federal government does not produce anything. So, how can it 'have' anything? We're 21 trillion dollars in debt.

And I don't want to trim down of the government programs. I want to end them gradually.

However, I find your "over 900 bases in 130 countries" to be a bit disingenuous ... you intentionally paint a picture that is, at best, misleading. For example, there are 37 military installations in Germany - a shocking figure, right? The truth is much more mundane ... four of those are remoted housing areas for military personnel (not connected physically to a nearby facility, thus counted as a separate "base" - six of those are training areas, with little or no military personnel, used to conduct maneuvers - again, separate, thus counted as a separate "base", 11 of them are pre-positioned supply facilities, again separate. Then, along the eastern border are a series of observation posts and forward operating sites, each counted as a separate "base". The reality is that there aren't 37 "bases" in Germany - there are actually only 5 with remoted mission units. Even totally automated radar facilities - because they are separated - count as "bases".

Actually, we have more than 900 bases. I'm the only one being honest in our dicussion. There's nothing misleading about it. Nothing. Why don't we mind out own god damned business? Ever think of that? We're the ones who are invading and illegally occupying nations abroad. And no declaration of war against any of these nations as the consitution demands. We're blowing up bridges abroad just to turn around and rob the taxpayers to rebuild what was just blown up. We're building embassys abroud that are bigger than the vatican. It's waste. How many foreign bases do we have on our own borders? I don't see any. Do you?

The list also includes about 150 sites that are actually closed ... but the US lease has not run out on them (most bases are leased for 99 years from foreign countries). So, technically, they are "installations" belonging to the US - they just don't cost us anything.

Bull pucky. It's taxpayer dollars and it's waste.

Bring our troops home and build bases here. That's defense spending. Hell, I'd have more bases here than we do abroad.

What many so called 'conservatives' tend to forget is that there is a difference between military spending and defense spending. And so called 'conservatives' tend to forget that we're broke. They don't understand that each time we print money which is backed by nothing at all and turn around and monetize that debt at the expense of the taxpayer via inflation tax, that we're wiping out the midddle class and poor Americans as well as seniors. And it's devaluing our dollar. Right now the dollar is worth 4 cents compared to 1950. And it's only going to get worse. Eventually it'll crash. Guaranteed. Which is why we're seeing other nations creating such things as the asian and brics banks.

And I'll tell you something about oil, too. I saw you mention that somewhere. Any real conservative who understands conservatism and actually sticks to his principles would conserve natural resources, too. Let the price of oil rise to its natural price so we can move onto cleaner means. But do you know why we don't do that? Wars. That's why. Oil is an excuse to continually print money and rob the taxpayers to create the illusion of covering the debt and justify the emperialism abroad. Bring the troops home, build bases here, and let oil rise to its natural price so we can move on to something else a little more 'conservative.'

You intentionally choose to misinterpret what I said. I said "... reprioritize our available tax dollars ... ". Where are your priorities? I never once proposed "printing money" so you can throw away that whole argument. I proposed we used the dollars we have smarter ...

You have attacked the wrong side of the problem - the problem isn't where do we get the money, but rather what do we do with the money we have. I agree with your commentary about printing money - I don't believe in it, either. But, that has nothing to do with the tactical or strategic necessity of a strong military. That's only an argument about how you pay for it. I suggest we close the Department of Labor, Department of Education, and the EPA and use that money to fund the military. I suggest that we give back control of education to the local communities, eliminate federal subsidies, and use that money for defense spending. I suggest that we eliminate other programs (I got a whole list of them) that exceed the authority of the federal government, keep those tax dollars, and use them to fund whatever the hell we need to. Would you rather pay an Iowa corn farmer to NOT grow corn or buy a satellite to monitor the movements of people intent on killing you?

Your argument about the "legality" of our "wars" is nebulous and undefined. You can say that since Congress hasn't declared war, they are illegal. I can say that since Congress hasn't declared war, they aren't really wars, are they? Call them by any name you wish --- military incursions, defense maneuvers --- call them whatever name you like. But, judge them on the basis of their goals and their results - not on some nebulous and arbitrary label.

You want us to "mind our own god damned business". Is it our business to ensure that the shipping lanes in the South China Sea are open for trade? Is it our business to ensure that Somalian pirates are prevented from confiscating US ships? Is it out business to keep the Suez and Panama Canals open? Is it our business to ensure that our customers are not being overrun by tyrants and thieves? Is it our business to assist Pakistan to try to control the growth of terrorist havens? Is it our business to assist the Philippines to put down the terrorist uprising in their country so that we can maintain our strategic position in the Pacific? Generalizations like "mind our god damned business" sound really good - but mean nothing when subjected to the light of the truth.

I suppose if the Russians were to attack and conquer Canada, you would propose that we not assist them, despite the fact that it would mean they are sitting on our doorstep.

 

[MikeK]

What makes someone who volunteers to serve his country psychologically defective?

I didn't say that. I said that those who want to endure boot camp or basic training and the subsequent years of being rousted at 5AM, shoveling shit, saluting, living in a barracks with fifty others, running around with a 40 pound pack on your back, crawling through mud, etc. etc. are psychologically defective. And if you disagree, then you are nuts, too.

Serving your country is one thing. Enjoying it is quite another. So join the Marines and see what I mean.

 

[jbander]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

well for the last many wars we have sent these poor young people out to murder for the bottom line of corporation and when they come back and start to realize the truth and that truth takes away every justification for doing what they had to do to stay alive in these wars. WE don't have to go any further then simply ask who were the two companies that gained the most from the war in Iraq.

 

[Spare_change]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

We have soldiers who want to be there instead of those forced to be there

That's not true ... soldiers don't WANT to be there. Nobody wants to be in a god forsaken place like Afghanistan, serving as a target for every piss ant with a rifle.

They are there because they understand their country NEEDS them to be there. At least, they have the courage to protect you - since most couldn't care less what happens to you.

 

[jbander]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

What this country should do is double the pay of the people in the military. That's how a professional military comes about.

 

[Spare_change]

Now you ask a fair question - why do we still have military bases in Germany?

For a moment, let's put aside our NATO commitment. Let's not talk about our promise to the people of Europe.

Instead, let's just talk about the direct military impact of those bases in Germany. There is an area in Germany called the Fulda Gap. It is the most geographically appropriate launching point of a Soviet incursion into Europe. Closing that door greatly complicates any attempt to attack Europe. Conversely, it is our most advantageous ground access point should we decide to invade Russia. So, the Soviets keep that door closed, as well. They commit troops and we commit troops - if we have a tank battalion there, they have to put a tank battalion there in response. If they have a tank battalion there, we have to put one there in response.

Sounds like a stand-off, doesn't it? EXCEPT - as you've pointed out, we spend about 14% of our federal expenditures on defense. Russia, on the other hand, spends about 21% on theirs - an unsustainable rate of expenditure. If you recall, Reagan's "Star Wars" initiative forced Russia to increase defense spending beyond its breaking point - and directly contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The same will hold true for the Putin regime. He will eventually go broke, spend too much trying to keep up, and be overthrown. Russia will go through another democratic evolution, and move closer to individual rights.

Now, back to NATO - we gave our word, we keep our word. Our support of NATO ensures the fealty of European countries - and just as importantly - European markets. Why do suppose it is that we don't have a military base in France, but so many in Germany?

Placing our troops in Germany - or anywhere else - is intrinsically cheaper than housing them in the US and sending them to the hot-spot of the day. What's the cost of a 50,000 acre military base in Germany compared to a 50,000 acre military base in California or South Carolina? What's the cost of maintaining 100,000 troops in South Korea compared to those same 100,000 in Nevada?

I get the chance to define stupid. I always like to do that. Especially when I can do it against the brain dead. Russia spends 70 billion a year on it's military. France, Britain, German, Italy ,Spain and Poland, spend 200 billion a year.
Now Russia would have to realize that in a matter of days another 1 trillion in military would start to be thrown at them.
So brain dead becomes the new world for stupid. You just have to laugh at their nonsense

You don't know the difference between National and corporate interests?

That, my friend, is the question

There is no difference

Sez you. Most of us know better.

now he's getting down to his best argument, may I quote him "sez You" ROTFL

You stated: " Its all their in post 170." and that was a lie. So where exactly do you claim you asked your idiotic question?
And why still no attempt to answer mine? Too ignorant to attempt such?
You claim this Country has fought hundreds of wars. Untrue
You claim we fight wars to benefit some corporate bottom line. Untrue.
You claim to know what wars have been "necessary". Obviously untrue.
Are you unable or simply unwilling to defend the idiotic positions you've taken in this thread? Can you give us any reason what-so-ever why anyone should think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about?

Because you a lower form of humanity , no one owes you any answer to your question. especially that fact that you never asked a question for me to respond to, but I did ask you a question didn't I , I put you in your place and your trying to hide in the corner and trying to bullshit your way out of it, The point I want to make has been made completely anyway , your are just another lying bullshitter that supports and type a hate you can come up with, just like your hate party. By the way if anyone is interested simply go to post 170 , that's his first question to me because he couldn't handle my comment he is responding to. and he has bull shitted his way through this thread . Again go to post 170 it is all their.

I asked you a question - in fact,I asked you three. And, you have refused to respond. Kettle - meet pot.

 

[jbander]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

We have soldiers who want to be there instead of those forced to be there

A conscripted army is a peoples army , what a pile of shit that is. Try paying them instead. Forcing people to fight in wars that are lies doesn't in any way make that a people s army.

 

[Spare_change]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

well for the last many wars we have sent these poor young people out to murder for the bottom line of corporation and when they come back and start to realize the truth and that truth takes away every justification for doing what they had to do to stay alive in these wars. WE don't have to go any further then simply ask who were the two companies that gained the most from the war in Iraq.

I will defend to the death your right to say incredibly stupid things .......

... but, I got to tell you --- you are definitely pushing the limit.

 

[jbander]

I get the chance to define stupid. I always like to do that. Especially when I can do it against the brain dead. Russia spends 70 billion a year on it's military. France, Britain, German, Italy ,Spain and Poland, spend 200 billion a year.
Now Russia would have to realize that in a matter of days another 1 trillion in military would start to be thrown at them.
So brain dead becomes the new world for stupid. You just have to laugh at their nonsense

That, my friend, is the question

There is no difference

Sez you. Most of us know better.

now he's getting down to his best argument, may I quote him "sez You" ROTFL

You stated: " Its all their in post 170." and that was a lie. So where exactly do you claim you asked your idiotic question?
And why still no attempt to answer mine? Too ignorant to attempt such?
You claim this Country has fought hundreds of wars. Untrue
You claim we fight wars to benefit some corporate bottom line. Untrue.
You claim to know what wars have been "necessary". Obviously untrue.
Are you unable or simply unwilling to defend the idiotic positions you've taken in this thread? Can you give us any reason what-so-ever why anyone should think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about?

Because you a lower form of humanity , no one owes you any answer to your question. especially that fact that you never asked a question for me to respond to, but I did ask you a question didn't I , I put you in your place and your trying to hide in the corner and trying to bullshit your way out of it, The point I want to make has been made completely anyway , your are just another lying bullshitter that supports and type a hate you can come up with, just like your hate party. By the way if anyone is interested simply go to post 170 , that's his first question to me because he couldn't handle my comment he is responding to. and he has bull shitted his way through this thread . Again go to post 170 it is all their.

I asked you a question - in fact,I asked you three. And, you have refused to respond. Kettle - meet pot.

I really care little what some scum ball in here asks me a question and I can only laugh when they think somehow I should have to respond. Shit I'me thinking about dumping , two of the brain dead in here. Not much interested in what they say anymore they have contributed nothing nothing nothing. I here to lecture you now on how stupid you haters are and that your the biggest threat to this country and we have to get rid of you. You sold out this country for hatred that makes you awful low in my book.

 

[MikeK]

I will defend to the death your right to say incredibly stupid things .......

... but, I got to tell you --- you are definitely pushing the limit.

Really? Then you tell us why we sacrificed 58,000 American lives in Vietnam, and why George H.W. Bush saw fit to double-cross Saddam Hussein and intervene in Hussein's righteous invasion of Kuwait? And tell us why George W. Bush saw fit to then invade an already defeated and militarily impotent Iraq.

Here's a little hint:

 

[jbander]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

well for the last many wars we have sent these poor young people out to murder for the bottom line of corporation and when they come back and start to realize the truth and that truth takes away every justification for doing what they had to do to stay alive in these wars. WE don't have to go any further then simply ask who were the two companies that gained the most from the war in Iraq.

I will defend to the death your right to say incredibly stupid things .......

... but, I got to tell you --- you are definitely pushing the limit.

Ya that's what hate will do. supporting the deaths of the American young for the sake of the bottom line of some corporation , that is pitiful/

 

[jbander]

I think this Country needs to restore military induction -- the draft. America was a better, and a safer, place when the majority of its male citizens (its men) were trained soldiers, both active and inactive. Also, military training had a very constructive effect on our young men. Most importantly, we had a massive pool of trained former soldiers who could be called up and fielded within weeks rather than the months it would take (during a national emergency) to call up and train raw recruits with no military experience. This inactive reserve pool would substantially enhance our status as a military power.

Our current military is best described as mercenary, which is a government's army. A conscripted army is a Peoples' army.

Wrong. No Nation can claim to be free while having slave armies. If the cause is just and the pay and benefits amount to more than slave wages conscription is not needed. It only becomes "necessary" when people, like some on here, demand the military give them something for next to nothing.

Anyone know what this crap means.