Wisconsin Collective Bargaining Law is Working

[Shogun]

Public Unions are just one big Shakedown Scam in the end. Someday all Americans will figure this out. The Union Leaders shake their members down and then the members shake the Taxpayers down. And of course the Democratic Party makes it all work. All Public Unions should be abolished as soon as possible. Time for the Taxpayers to fight back.

Save that speech for the militia rally after those republicans are ousted and the governor is forced to leave office.

Ah you're just still asleep. But you'll wake up one day. Public Unions are and have been an awful Shakedown Scam for many years. I don't have a problem with Private-Sector Unions but Public Unions have to go. They are not good for this Nation. I think you'll see this one day.

Your wet dreams are just that: dreams. Your kind leap onto a bandwagon and spout off the rhetoric quicker than you ever try thinking about the stupid shit you keep posting. Public sector unions are no better or worse than private sector unions and it's fucking laughable that, all of a sudden, your kind "don't have a problem with private unions" despite decades of the same ole bitching about the same ole collective worker impeding the wealthy dick in your mouth from cumming all over everyone beyond your lips.

dream on, dude. dream on.

 

[Shogun]

Save that speech for the militia rally after those republicans are ousted and the governor is forced to leave office.

Ah you're just still asleep. But you'll wake up one day. Public Unions are and have been an awful Shakedown Scam for many years. I don't have a problem with Private-Sector Unions but Public Unions have to go. They are not good for this Nation. I think you'll see this one day.

Even the patron saint of progressivism FDR was afraid of them and forbade collective bargaining for Gubmint people.

Never underestimate the damage that can be done by stupid people in large numbers.

Then again, I spent this last weekend explaining to a University Chancellor that we are a representative republic, not a democracy and why it's different because he didn't know. So I'm not surprised people don't get this.

ahh yes, fascism rears it's head again..

THAT didn't take long.

 

[Claudette]

Public Unions are just one big Shakedown Scam in the end. Someday all Americans will figure this out. The Union Leaders shake their members down and then the members shake the Taxpayers down. And of course the Democratic Party makes it all work. All Public Unions should be abolished as soon as possible. Time for the Taxpayers to fight back.

Save that speech for the militia rally after those republicans are ousted and the governor is forced to leave office.

Guess we'll see in four years.

If Walkers plans have worked the State should be doing quite well. Communities are already saving millions in taxes without paying high Unions pensions and HC benefits. Folks rather like keeping their hard earned money.

Just have to wait and see won't we??

 

[Shogun]

Public Unions are just one big Shakedown Scam in the end. Someday all Americans will figure this out. The Union Leaders shake their members down and then the members shake the Taxpayers down. And of course the Democratic Party makes it all work. All Public Unions should be abolished as soon as possible. Time for the Taxpayers to fight back.

Save that speech for the militia rally after those republicans are ousted and the governor is forced to leave office.

Guess we'll see in four years.

If Walkers plans have worked the State should be doing quite well. Communities are already saving millions in taxes without paying high Unions pensions and HC benefits. Folks rather like keeping their hard earned money.

Just have to wait and see won't we??

Your kind always say that when rolling the dice with economic issues. We heard the same shit when NAFTA was being used as the Congressional diaper on Bill Clinton's ass.

 

[elvis]

Save that speech for the militia rally after those republicans are ousted and the governor is forced to leave office.

Guess we'll see in four years.

If Walkers plans have worked the State should be doing quite well. Communities are already saving millions in taxes without paying high Unions pensions and HC benefits. Folks rather like keeping their hard earned money.

Just have to wait and see won't we??

Your kind always say that when rolling the dice with economic issues. We heard the same shit when NAFTA was being used as the Congressional diaper on Bill Clinton's ass.

did Monica have to take that diaper off?

 

[Trajan]

Hmmm.....I have to provide:

a) my union card and/or union memberships on union letterhead ( with contact information there in) in my name for
b) for both the private
c)public sector unions I worked for.
d) shop steward status verified
e) proof of my elected position delineating your position in negotiator status as proof of my bargaining status
f) my dsl bill (whatever THAT is), with name clearly spelled out which they will check against the IP's that have been recorded here.
g) my work emails, past and present at those unions.

And you have to provide:

a)irrefutable proof of your union status

That's a little one sided, don't ya think?

I was going to simply send you my name along with a couple of links to verify employment, union status and past elected position. Proof of steward status can only be verified through pay stubs ($50 a month...big whoop) and proof of being on the county negotiating team can only be verified by putting you in contact with other members (I suppose I could go search county records but that will take at least a 1/2 day and I ain't got that much time to waste on this shit). Work e-mail addy is no problem. But since I am not going to send anyone bills, pay stubs or hand out other peoples names I guess your SOL.

I can see your point that either of us can submit false names to a mod or each other so maybe my idea wouldn't have been irrefutable proof either.

So you're either gonna have to accept my word (and I yours) or call bullshit (which goes both ways). But a man's only as good as his word and I'm being 100% honest when I say:

I am a member of IBEW Local 15 which represents the the workforce of a public utility. Now does that constitute a "public union"? You make the call.

I was an elected member of my County Board and attained the position of Vice-Chair. I served as Chair of the Public Works and Highways Committee, Chair of the Safety Committee (over the Sheriff's department and County Jail) and member of the Finance Committee (overseeing all tax income and disbursements). I also served on the Ad-Hoc Union Negotiating Committee opposite of the AFSCME union.

So this is where I'm gonna leave it. If you want to call BS so be it.

.

That's a little one sided, don't ya think?

No, not really, I make no claims other than I am a member of a U.C. public sector union. Proving that is, as in some cases of yours, relatively easy. *shrugs* ( I said so, her on the forum way back before you were even posting here btw)


My question of your status in particular goes to your past declaration of being a member of a private sector union while debating in a thread speaking to public sector unions, now you said you are a negotiator and public sector employee…..when this all started, you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding as to the difference between the 2, private and public. So, I don’t get it.

Either you are NOT what you say you have been or, you have been on the public side of the table for so long you have allowed any logical delineation between the 2 to be completely purged from your mind and the adversarial position you occupy has innervated itself to such an extent you appear to have lost all sense of balance.

I have read a majority of your posts ( I think) , if you are a public sector union negotiator I have to say you have the most uncompromising anti ‘them’ attitude, I guess that fits, everything is totally and completely adversarial to the knife. I understand having to fight for your people, but this is not the table, this is a forum, so I see this as…you(?) and how you would react and negotiate.

That’s not what I would want in a negotiator frankly and just speaks to this whole issue. I cannot recall once in the threads posts I have read, where in you supposed or otherwise, it appears to me, even hinted that there needs to be a walk back of unalloyed union primacy in the public sectors effected. *shrugs*


Me? After serving in the private sector non union, I see my own union as a mechanism that doesn’t bargain in good faith, is actually harmful to the system of work etc. that goes on in my environment as per my example ( and others I can detail) of the massive raises amidst a demand for reasonable pension and health care contributions.

Yes the Regents granted it, they too are craven in that sense but at the end of the day, politics and pressure won, not the people of California of which I am also one. I have no problem saying so here in a forum, I would never ever say this at work, and we both ( if you are what you say you are) know why.

And as I said earlier, (as I do) if you had any qualms that perhaps your ‘side’ may need to pull back or perhaps something in the process as it applies to your own employer etc. here at the forum you would say so, but it appears you don’t….which can only lead to, well a closed mind.

And there it is; so in a sense I guess I am asking blood from a turnip, if you are what you say are does it matter? If not, does it matter? and probably makes the case moot, it cannot get any worse in any case.

I suppose the crux of the issue is whether one considers a union for a PUBLIC utility to, in fact be a public sector union. We don't have to compete for business and the ratepayers simply have to pay whatever costs we pass onto them (provided the Illinois Commerce Commision allowed it). So I've always considered myself as having experience in a union that spanned both public and private entities.

My elected position forced me to sit on the other side of the table negotiating against the AFSCME union. And I wasn't the only power plant union member on the board or on the negotiating committee (there were two of us). The wage negotiations went pretty well since their demands weren't too far out of line. But when we negotiated medical benefits all hell broke loose. The county portion nearly tripled over the life of the last contract and we were able to convince them to pay more into their plans, but it was tough.

Ironically after my last term was up negotiations were scheduled for that year. The board pushed them to both pay more AND tried to force into plans with less coverage. The union went on strike and after a month they were able to come to an agreement. I'm glad I wasn't part of that.

Now how does this translate to my posts in this forum?

One on hand I have no problem forcing union members to pay more towards their benefits. I agree that in limited cases they even take advantage of the system and things should change. So much for being, as you said, being closed minded.

On the other I do get pissed when I read comments that place all the blame on the rank and file, that they are nothing more than leeches and lazy bums who steal from the taxpayers. And I will ram words and attitudes like that right back down their throats. I take personal offense at it and it most comes from morons that have no clue as to what their talking about.

Now I don't have much of a problem with Walker making them pay more. But to strip them of bargaining rights is WRONG. Period. And I will never compromise on that issue. That's where I draw the line.

I consider you a union brother and acknowledge that you have an opinion that doesn't agree with mine. So what? I work with several people who are openly critical of the union and a few who are nothing more than "fee payers". Nothing bad ever happens to them. Co-workers are civil to them and just don't get into discussions with them about it. If they did they could be disciplined for creating a hostile work environment.

So there it is............

.

Not to sound patronizing, but; I have to say that that’s the second completely lucid, apparently honest and hostility free post you have sent me, perhaps if we had kept it that way the past conversations would have went differently. So I will respond in an alike manner.

I am not going to zebra quote your post to death, I have learned more from this thread than all others you have posted. Thx for taking the time.

Heres the deal, imho; unions have outlived their usefulness especially in the public sector. That being said, they never belonged in the public sector, I am not going to re-post comments from hard core union adherents from the past whom have said so.

Unions have an image problem, now we can argue why that is, but I think in the end the major portion of that burden was brought on by themselves. The membership takes heat for it, justified OR not.

Maybe now, that re-certification has to take place, the members will re-think the efficacy of being unionized. I mean why? They get treated well they get paid well, they have excellent benefits and more importantly there is a plethora of fed and state agencies whom have grown up over the decades that can insure, as well as public opinion that they don’t get submarined.


I won’t go into my unions situation here and my part in it other than to say- in my opinion it is completely warped and in fact detrimental to practice say- the seniority game. Yes I know why it exists and understand that before the gov. provided redress for egregious employment ( or that is unemployment practices vis a vis older employees) this was definitely needed, I agree, however, now? (thats just one)

Anyway…..there it is

 

[NYcarbineer]

Tough talk from a sissy bedwetter.

You answer my question first. Why are you afraid the workers will vote to de-cert?

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

Bzzzzzt! Sorry. You didn't answer my question.

In other words, you cannot produce a single other electoral circumstance where you think it would be fair to use the preposterously rigged Wisconsin re-certification process,

and yet you defend it.

That makes you a partisan hack moron.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Tough talk from a sissy bedwetter.

You answer my question first. Why are you afraid the workers will vote to de-cert?

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle here's the question in post 221...

So what other elections other than union certification do you believe should require 51% of the eligible voters to vote for in order to pass? As opposed to a majority of those who vote...

A quick list shouldn't take you much effort. Show us how fair and consistent you are.

.

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No, I am not. You too seem to be afraid that the workers will choose to de-certify, despite your insistence that you know what's best for them.

You're the one who said leave it to the will of the workers. Now prove to me that most public sector union workers in WI want an annual certification vote that must get 51% of the entire membership to vote for it.

Maybe once a year the voters of Wisconsin should have to vote on this law, and it would take 51% of all registered voters to vote for it in order for it to remain in place.

Fair enough? Good for one, good for the other. No double standard.

My goodness, you're just terrified that the workers might choose to de-certify. Why is that? Is it because of the union's automatic donations to the Democratic Party?

It's certainly not that you give a damn about what the workers want.

Daveman's 'tell' when he's beaten in an argument. The sissified ad hominem.

 

[daveman]

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

Bzzzzzt! Sorry. You didn't answer my question.

In other words, you cannot produce a single other electoral circumstance where you think it would be fair to use the preposterously rigged Wisconsin re-certification process,

and yet you defend it.

That makes you a partisan hack moron.

I'm sure it comforts your small little mind to feel that way, but no.

If the workers want the union, the union will remain. If they don't, the union goes away...along with all the Democratic Party donations.

And that's what you fear.

 

[daveman]

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle here's the question in post 221...

So what other elections other than union certification do you believe should require 51% of the eligible voters to vote for in order to pass? As opposed to a majority of those who vote...

A quick list shouldn't take you much effort. Show us how fair and consistent you are.

.

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

Yes, childish foot-stamping is such a compelling argument.

 

[NYcarbineer]

And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle here's the question in post 221...


.

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

Yes, childish foot-stamping is such a compelling argument.

Do you need the question repeated?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Bzzzzzt! Sorry. You didn't answer my question.

In other words, you cannot produce a single other electoral circumstance where you think it would be fair to use the preposterously rigged Wisconsin re-certification process,

and yet you defend it.

That makes you a partisan hack moron.

I'm sure it comforts your small little mind to feel that way, but no.

If the workers want the union, the union will remain. If they don't, the union goes away...along with all the Democratic Party donations.

And that's what you fear.

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

 

[daveman]

You're the one who said leave it to the will of the workers. Now prove to me that most public sector union workers in WI want an annual certification vote that must get 51% of the entire membership to vote for it.

Maybe once a year the voters of Wisconsin should have to vote on this law, and it would take 51% of all registered voters to vote for it in order for it to remain in place.

Fair enough? Good for one, good for the other. No double standard.

My goodness, you're just terrified that the workers might choose to de-certify. Why is that? Is it because of the union's automatic donations to the Democratic Party?

It's certainly not that you give a damn about what the workers want.

Daveman's 'tell' when he's beaten in an argument. The sissified ad hominem.

Ahem.

Psst! Your double standards are showing.

 

[daveman]

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

Yes, childish foot-stamping is such a compelling argument.

Do you need the question repeated?

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of your tantrum.

 

[daveman]

In other words, you cannot produce a single other electoral circumstance where you think it would be fair to use the preposterously rigged Wisconsin re-certification process,

and yet you defend it.

That makes you a partisan hack moron.

I'm sure it comforts your small little mind to feel that way, but no.

If the workers want the union, the union will remain. If they don't, the union goes away...along with all the Democratic Party donations.

And that's what you fear.

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

 

[Trajan]

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle here's the question in post 221...

So what other elections other than union certification do you believe should require 51% of the eligible voters to vote for in order to pass? As opposed to a majority of those who vote...

A quick list shouldn't take you much effort. Show us how fair and consistent you are.

.

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

I actually did respond, as usual you are busy pursuing your own gotcha game. grow up.

 

[DaGoose]

Public Unions are just one big Shakedown Scam in the end. Someday all Americans will figure this out. The Union Leaders shake their members down and then the members shake the Taxpayers down. And of course the Democratic Party makes it all work. All Public Unions should be abolished as soon as possible. Time for the Taxpayers to fight back.

I know I'm going to regret this but please answer the question: Exactly how do the union members "shake the taxpayers down" other than ask for their rightfully earned wages? Be specific.

.

 

[initforme]

As a resident of wisconsin I will not expect my roads to be plowed nearly as well now nor will I expect the teachers of my district to work as hard as they have been. Nor should anyone of sane mind.

 

[DaGoose]

I'm sure it comforts your small little mind to feel that way, but no.

If the workers want the union, the union will remain. If they don't, the union goes away...along with all the Democratic Party donations.

And that's what you fear.

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.