Wisconsin Collective Bargaining Law is Working

[Dr.House]

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

You said that before Kloppenplop gave her "victory speech"...

BTW, there are 3 chickenshit democratics who fled the state up for recall as well...

Y'all seem to be forgettin' that....

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

Exactly! First the union members will rise up and unseat Prosser just like the Americans were victorious at the Battle of Midway!
Wait, what?
Oh, the unions were the Japanese.......

 

[Dr.House]

Some points to Remember:

Getting some elections board to believe you have enough valid signatures does not guarentee you'll get enough votes in the general to actually defeat the incumbent...

These elections are not statewide either - only in specific districts... Districts who have already elected their candidate, and in some cases, by a wide margin...

 

[daveman]

How many elections in this country require a majority of the registered voters to vote in the affirmative for a measure to pass?

Give me a list.

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

Do pay attention. We're talking about the annual union cert.

 

[DaGoose]

No, not really, I make no claims other than I am a member of a U.C. public sector union. Proving that is, as in some cases of yours, relatively easy. *shrugs* ( I said so, her on the forum way back before you were even posting here btw)


My question of your status in particular goes to your past declaration of being a member of a private sector union while debating in a thread speaking to public sector unions, now you said you are a negotiator and public sector employee…..when this all started, you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding as to the difference between the 2, private and public. So, I don’t get it.

Either you are NOT what you say you have been or, you have been on the public side of the table for so long you have allowed any logical delineation between the 2 to be completely purged from your mind and the adversarial position you occupy has innervated itself to such an extent you appear to have lost all sense of balance.

I have read a majority of your posts ( I think) , if you are a public sector union negotiator I have to say you have the most uncompromising anti ‘them’ attitude, I guess that fits, everything is totally and completely adversarial to the knife. I understand having to fight for your people, but this is not the table, this is a forum, so I see this as…you(?) and how you would react and negotiate.

That’s not what I would want in a negotiator frankly and just speaks to this whole issue. I cannot recall once in the threads posts I have read, where in you supposed or otherwise, it appears to me, even hinted that there needs to be a walk back of unalloyed union primacy in the public sectors effected. *shrugs*


Me? After serving in the private sector non union, I see my own union as a mechanism that doesn’t bargain in good faith, is actually harmful to the system of work etc. that goes on in my environment as per my example ( and others I can detail) of the massive raises amidst a demand for reasonable pension and health care contributions.

Yes the Regents granted it, they too are craven in that sense but at the end of the day, politics and pressure won, not the people of California of which I am also one. I have no problem saying so here in a forum, I would never ever say this at work, and we both ( if you are what you say you are) know why.

And as I said earlier, (as I do) if you had any qualms that perhaps your ‘side’ may need to pull back or perhaps something in the process as it applies to your own employer etc. here at the forum you would say so, but it appears you don’t….which can only lead to, well a closed mind.

And there it is; so in a sense I guess I am asking blood from a turnip, if you are what you say are does it matter? If not, does it matter? and probably makes the case moot, it cannot get any worse in any case.

I suppose the crux of the issue is whether one considers a union for a PUBLIC utility to, in fact be a public sector union. We don't have to compete for business and the ratepayers simply have to pay whatever costs we pass onto them (provided the Illinois Commerce Commision allowed it). So I've always considered myself as having experience in a union that spanned both public and private entities.

My elected position forced me to sit on the other side of the table negotiating against the AFSCME union. And I wasn't the only power plant union member on the board or on the negotiating committee (there were two of us). The wage negotiations went pretty well since their demands weren't too far out of line. But when we negotiated medical benefits all hell broke loose. The county portion nearly tripled over the life of the last contract and we were able to convince them to pay more into their plans, but it was tough.

Ironically after my last term was up negotiations were scheduled for that year. The board pushed them to both pay more AND tried to force into plans with less coverage. The union went on strike and after a month they were able to come to an agreement. I'm glad I wasn't part of that.

Now how does this translate to my posts in this forum?

One on hand I have no problem forcing union members to pay more towards their benefits. I agree that in limited cases they even take advantage of the system and things should change. So much for being, as you said, being closed minded.

On the other I do get pissed when I read comments that place all the blame on the rank and file, that they are nothing more than leeches and lazy bums who steal from the taxpayers. And I will ram words and attitudes like that right back down their throats. I take personal offense at it and it most comes from morons that have no clue as to what their talking about.

Now I don't have much of a problem with Walker making them pay more. But to strip them of bargaining rights is WRONG. Period. And I will never compromise on that issue. That's where I draw the line.

I consider you a union brother and acknowledge that you have an opinion that doesn't agree with mine. So what? I work with several people who are openly critical of the union and a few who are nothing more than "fee payers". Nothing bad ever happens to them. Co-workers are civil to them and just don't get into discussions with them about it. If they did they could be disciplined for creating a hostile work environment.

So there it is............

.

Not to sound patronizing, but; I have to say that that’s the second completely lucid, apparently honest and hostility free post you have sent me, perhaps if we had kept it that way the past conversations would have went differently. So I will respond in an alike manner.

I am not going to zebra quote your post to death, I have learned more from this thread than all others you have posted. Thx for taking the time.

Heres the deal, imho; unions have outlived their usefulness especially in the public sector. That being said, they never belonged in the public sector, I am not going to re-post comments from hard core union adherents from the past whom have said so.

Unions have an image problem, now we can argue why that is, but I think in the end the major portion of that burden was brought on by themselves. The membership takes heat for it, justified OR not.

Maybe now, that re-certification has to take place, the members will re-think the efficacy of being unionized. I mean why? They get treated well they get paid well, they have excellent benefits and more importantly there is a plethora of fed and state agencies whom have grown up over the decades that can insure, as well as public opinion that they don’t get submarined.


I won’t go into my unions situation here and my part in it other than to say- in my opinion it is completely warped and in fact detrimental to practice say- the seniority game. Yes I know why it exists and understand that before the gov. provided redress for egregious employment ( or that is unemployment practices vis a vis older employees) this was definitely needed, I agree, however, now? (thats just one)

Anyway…..there it is

I can't sit here and say that everything they do is 100% correct. There are some rules I've read that I disagree with and never would have allowed in my county through negotiations.

However, I support public unions because I support the people that make them up. Every elected department head and school official would salivate at being able to replace even the good workers to give jobs to cousins, aunts, uncles, political supporters, etc. You get rid of the unions and you're guaranteed to completely politisize the entire hiring/firing processes. Hardly anyone will have a job for 4 years and lazy workers would be protected by the elected officials that hired them.

Our local county officials bear this out. The County Clerk complained to me (5 years ago after he was elected) that he had too many Republicans in his office that were left over from a Republican County Clerk that served over 15 years ago. Now he has been replacing them with Democrats as they retired but he would have loved to simply fired and replaced them right away. But he couldn't because according to the AFSCME contract he had to have just cause. It would be the same with the Treasurer, Sheriff, County Board Chairman, Clerk of the Circuit Court, etc.

Why in the hell would we want to go back to those days?

.

 

[initforme]

Why would we want to go back to those days? You mean the days where laborers are looked upon as nothing but bad? Because the ultra conservatives want everything for themselves and for nobody else to have anything. Pretty cut and dried. They are all against abortion and then once the child is born they want nothing to do to help it out.

 

[Dr.House]

Why would we want to go back to those days? You mean the days where laborers are looked upon as nothing but bad? Because the ultra conservatives want everything for themselves and for nobody else to have anything. Pretty cut and dried. They are all against abortion and then once the child is born they want nothing to do to help it out.

Do you always speak in regurgitated sweeping generalizations or are you just trying to impress the ultra leftoids?

 

[DaGoose]

If the union is so important to the workers, they'll vote.

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

Do pay attention. We're talking about the annual union cert.

We'll be talking about a heluva lot more a week from today. Wanna take any bets that the Dems regain control of the Wisconsin Senate on July 12th?

.

 

[Trajan]

I suppose the crux of the issue is whether one considers a union for a PUBLIC utility to, in fact be a public sector union. We don't have to compete for business and the ratepayers simply have to pay whatever costs we pass onto them (provided the Illinois Commerce Commision allowed it). So I've always considered myself as having experience in a union that spanned both public and private entities.

My elected position forced me to sit on the other side of the table negotiating against the AFSCME union. And I wasn't the only power plant union member on the board or on the negotiating committee (there were two of us). The wage negotiations went pretty well since their demands weren't too far out of line. But when we negotiated medical benefits all hell broke loose. The county portion nearly tripled over the life of the last contract and we were able to convince them to pay more into their plans, but it was tough.

Ironically after my last term was up negotiations were scheduled for that year. The board pushed them to both pay more AND tried to force into plans with less coverage. The union went on strike and after a month they were able to come to an agreement. I'm glad I wasn't part of that.

Now how does this translate to my posts in this forum?

One on hand I have no problem forcing union members to pay more towards their benefits. I agree that in limited cases they even take advantage of the system and things should change. So much for being, as you said, being closed minded.

On the other I do get pissed when I read comments that place all the blame on the rank and file, that they are nothing more than leeches and lazy bums who steal from the taxpayers. And I will ram words and attitudes like that right back down their throats. I take personal offense at it and it most comes from morons that have no clue as to what their talking about.

Now I don't have much of a problem with Walker making them pay more. But to strip them of bargaining rights is WRONG. Period. And I will never compromise on that issue. That's where I draw the line.

I consider you a union brother and acknowledge that you have an opinion that doesn't agree with mine. So what? I work with several people who are openly critical of the union and a few who are nothing more than "fee payers". Nothing bad ever happens to them. Co-workers are civil to them and just don't get into discussions with them about it. If they did they could be disciplined for creating a hostile work environment.

So there it is............

.

Not to sound patronizing, but; I have to say that that’s the second completely lucid, apparently honest and hostility free post you have sent me, perhaps if we had kept it that way the past conversations would have went differently. So I will respond in an alike manner.

I am not going to zebra quote your post to death, I have learned more from this thread than all others you have posted. Thx for taking the time.

Heres the deal, imho; unions have outlived their usefulness especially in the public sector. That being said, they never belonged in the public sector, I am not going to re-post comments from hard core union adherents from the past whom have said so.

Unions have an image problem, now we can argue why that is, but I think in the end the major portion of that burden was brought on by themselves. The membership takes heat for it, justified OR not.

Maybe now, that re-certification has to take place, the members will re-think the efficacy of being unionized. I mean why? They get treated well they get paid well, they have excellent benefits and more importantly there is a plethora of fed and state agencies whom have grown up over the decades that can insure, as well as public opinion that they don’t get submarined.


I won’t go into my unions situation here and my part in it other than to say- in my opinion it is completely warped and in fact detrimental to practice say- the seniority game. Yes I know why it exists and understand that before the gov. provided redress for egregious employment ( or that is unemployment practices vis a vis older employees) this was definitely needed, I agree, however, now? (thats just one)

Anyway…..there it is

I can't sit here and say that everything they do is 100% correct. There are some rules I've read that I disagree with and never would have allowed in my county through negotiations.

However, I support public unions because I support the people that make them up. Every elected department head and school official would salivate at being able to replace even the good workers to give jobs to cousins, aunts, uncles, political supporters, etc. You get rid of the unions and you're guaranteed to completely politisize the entire hiring/firing processes. Hardly anyone will have a job for 4 years and lazy workers would be protected by the elected officials that hired them.

Our local county officials bear this out. The County Clerk complained to me (5 years ago after he was elected) that he had too many Republicans in his office that were left over from a Republican County Clerk that served over 15 years ago. Now he has been replacing them with Democrats as they retired but he would have loved to simply fired and replaced them right away. But he couldn't because according to the AFSCME contract he had to have just cause. It would be the same with the Treasurer, Sheriff, County Board Chairman, Clerk of the Circuit Court, etc.

Why in the hell would we want to go back to those days?

.

because that nepotism is no better and than union nepotism.

how does dropping unions politicize the process any further? what happened post1960 ( or whenever wiscy) broke the mold?

and why is he replacing them? are they not performing? OR is he playing his game? his alike party only...wow....


whether you intended to or not you just made a case for might makes right, if so, then lets just strip it all down and settle on the one indisputable fact;

walker won, the reps control the leg. and thats that....next time the dems win they can just turn the clock back and lets move on already.

 

[Dr.House]

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

Do pay attention. We're talking about the annual union cert.

We'll be talking about a heluva lot more a week from today. Wanna take any bets that the Dems regain control of the Wisconsin Senate on July 12th?

.

I'll take that bet - since July 12th is only the democrat primaries to see who goes against the incumbent...

You really should pay attention to the 4 different dates coming up and what they mean before you make stupid bets...

Get googling....

 

[initforme]

Recalls or not the damage is already done. I am hoping to hear all the MERIT PAY provisions each district will be creating. Hopefully the numerous good teachers will be reaping the benefits of BIG bonuses for doing a good job.

 

[DaGoose]

Do pay attention. We're talking about the annual union cert.

We'll be talking about a heluva lot more a week from today. Wanna take any bets that the Dems regain control of the Wisconsin Senate on July 12th?

.

I'll take that bet - since July 12th is only the democrat primaries to see who goes against the incumbent...

You really should pay attention to the 4 different dates coming up and what they mean before you make stupid bets...

Get googling....

Oops....my bad. August 9th is the date that the Dems retake control of the Wisconsin Senate.

.

 

[DaGoose]

Not to sound patronizing, but; I have to say that that’s the second completely lucid, apparently honest and hostility free post you have sent me, perhaps if we had kept it that way the past conversations would have went differently. So I will respond in an alike manner.

I am not going to zebra quote your post to death, I have learned more from this thread than all others you have posted. Thx for taking the time.

Heres the deal, imho; unions have outlived their usefulness especially in the public sector. That being said, they never belonged in the public sector, I am not going to re-post comments from hard core union adherents from the past whom have said so.

Unions have an image problem, now we can argue why that is, but I think in the end the major portion of that burden was brought on by themselves. The membership takes heat for it, justified OR not.

Maybe now, that re-certification has to take place, the members will re-think the efficacy of being unionized. I mean why? They get treated well they get paid well, they have excellent benefits and more importantly there is a plethora of fed and state agencies whom have grown up over the decades that can insure, as well as public opinion that they don’t get submarined.


I won’t go into my unions situation here and my part in it other than to say- in my opinion it is completely warped and in fact detrimental to practice say- the seniority game. Yes I know why it exists and understand that before the gov. provided redress for egregious employment ( or that is unemployment practices vis a vis older employees) this was definitely needed, I agree, however, now? (thats just one)

Anyway…..there it is

I can't sit here and say that everything they do is 100% correct. There are some rules I've read that I disagree with and never would have allowed in my county through negotiations.

However, I support public unions because I support the people that make them up. Every elected department head and school official would salivate at being able to replace even the good workers to give jobs to cousins, aunts, uncles, political supporters, etc. You get rid of the unions and you're guaranteed to completely politisize the entire hiring/firing processes. Hardly anyone will have a job for 4 years and lazy workers would be protected by the elected officials that hired them.

Our local county officials bear this out. The County Clerk complained to me (5 years ago after he was elected) that he had too many Republicans in his office that were left over from a Republican County Clerk that served over 15 years ago. Now he has been replacing them with Democrats as they retired but he would have loved to simply fired and replaced them right away. But he couldn't because according to the AFSCME contract he had to have just cause. It would be the same with the Treasurer, Sheriff, County Board Chairman, Clerk of the Circuit Court, etc.

Why in the hell would we want to go back to those days?

.

because that nepotism is no better and than union nepotism.

how does dropping unions politicize the process any further? what happened post1960 ( or whenever wiscy) broke the mold?

and why is he replacing them? are they not performing? OR is he playing his game? his alike party only...wow....


whether you intended to or not you just made a case for might makes right, if so, then lets just strip it all down and settle on the one indisputable fact;

walker won, the reps control the leg. and thats that....next time the dems win they can just turn the clock back and lets move on already.

I've yet to ever hear of "union nepotism" or any way the union can "force" employers to hire friends and relatives? With what leverage?

The reason he was replacing his republican employees was because they were retiring. If there was no union then good 20+ year employees could have been tossed out on their rear for no other reason than they were affiliated with a certain party before they were eligible for retirement. But the AFSCME contract prevents him from taking that action. It was the same thing with a Republican Sheriff that would have LOVED getting rid of a deputy that also served as a Dem precinct committeeman that was hired years ago by a Dem sheriff. The Rep sheriff DID get to hire his son as a deputy before retiring himself, though. So you can see it goes both ways.

And this is one small county in a big state. Get rid of all public unions and you will see a free for all like never before as elected officials all over the nation purge all of their employees from their jobs simply because they belong to the wrong party.

THAT'S one good reason for public unions. To take the politics out of the hiring/firing process.

.

 

[initforme]

Employers HATE unions because then they feel forced to actually pay a decent wage. But in their minds one penny per hour is too much to pay. On top of that, big business hates collective bargaining because they dont consider those they employ as their equals and therefore feel they shouldnt have to actually sit across the table from them.

 

[Too Tall]

We'll be talking about a heluva lot more a week from today. Wanna take any bets that the Dems regain control of the Wisconsin Senate on July 12th?

.

I'll take that bet - since July 12th is only the democrat primaries to see who goes against the incumbent...

You really should pay attention to the 4 different dates coming up and what they mean before you make stupid bets...

Get googling....

Oops....my bad. August 9th is the date that the Dems retake control of the Wisconsin Senate.

.

What difference will it make if the Democrats have a majority? Gov Walker can veto anything they pass and it would take a 2/3rds majority in both the House and the Senate to overturn his veto.

 

[Too Tall]

Employers HATE unions because then they feel forced to actually pay a decent wage. But in their minds one penny per hour is too much to pay. On top of that, big business hates collective bargaining because they dont consider those they employ as their equals and therefore feel they shouldnt have to actually sit across the table from them.

Who told you this drivel?

 

[Too Tall]

I'm not. But the rigged voting procedure where the non-voters get counted as 'no' is absurd.

Now answer my question.

And just so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle here's the question in post 221...

So what other elections other than union certification do you believe should require 51% of the eligible voters to vote for in order to pass? As opposed to a majority of those who vote...

A quick list shouldn't take you much effort. Show us how fair and consistent you are.

.

Trajan and daveman won't answer it because they can't.

If the unions have to get 51% of the membership every year to vote for re-certification then Wisconsin should have to get 51% of the registered voters every year to re-affirm this law.

That is patently absurd! What other law passed by the Legislature and signed by the Governor do you want the registered voters to re-affirm. All of them? Just some of them? We elect our representatives to do that.

 

[boedicca]

Next step is to get rid of Government Unions all together. Public Unions are not good for the Country. It's always in their best interest to rape the American Taxpayer. It was a terrible blunder allowing Public Unions in the first place. Private Unions are a different matter. I'm not so opposed to them. But Public Unions gotta go.

Indeed. The purpose of Unions is to Stick It To The Man, which in the case of Public Employee Unions, means the U.S. Taxpayer.

 

[Trajan]

I can't sit here and say that everything they do is 100% correct. There are some rules I've read that I disagree with and never would have allowed in my county through negotiations.

However, I support public unions because I support the people that make them up. Every elected department head and school official would salivate at being able to replace even the good workers to give jobs to cousins, aunts, uncles, political supporters, etc. You get rid of the unions and you're guaranteed to completely politisize the entire hiring/firing processes. Hardly anyone will have a job for 4 years and lazy workers would be protected by the elected officials that hired them.

Our local county officials bear this out. The County Clerk complained to me (5 years ago after he was elected) that he had too many Republicans in his office that were left over from a Republican County Clerk that served over 15 years ago. Now he has been replacing them with Democrats as they retired but he would have loved to simply fired and replaced them right away. But he couldn't because according to the AFSCME contract he had to have just cause. It would be the same with the Treasurer, Sheriff, County Board Chairman, Clerk of the Circuit Court, etc.

Why in the hell would we want to go back to those days?

.

because that nepotism is no better and than union nepotism.

how does dropping unions politicize the process any further? what happened post1960 ( or whenever wiscy) broke the mold?

and why is he replacing them? are they not performing? OR is he playing his game? his alike party only...wow....


whether you intended to or not you just made a case for might makes right, if so, then lets just strip it all down and settle on the one indisputable fact;

walker won, the reps control the leg. and thats that....next time the dems win they can just turn the clock back and lets move on already.

I've yet to ever hear of "union nepotism" or any way the union can "force" employers to hire friends and relatives? With what leverage?

please goose, stop it.

the leverage of friendship/ kinship, hey this is my nephew etc...who gets apprentice jobs who gets summer jobs who gets the nod to hire in when they open the books...

The reason he was replacing his republican employees was because they were retiring. If there was no union then good 20+ year employees could have been tossed out on their rear for no other reason than they were affiliated with a certain party before they were eligible for retirement.

But the AFSCME contract prevents him from taking that action. It was the same thing with a Republican Sheriff that would have LOVED getting rid of a deputy that also served as a Dem precinct committeeman that was hired years ago by a Dem sheriff. The Rep sheriff DID get to hire his son as a deputy before retiring himself, though. So you can see it goes both ways.

I addressed this, what was wrong with how it worked pre union?

And this is one small county in a big state. Get rid of all public unions and you will see a free for all like never before as elected officials all over the nation purge all of their employees from their jobs simply because they belong to the wrong party.

THAT'S one good reason for public unions. To take the politics out of the hiring/firing process.

.

I have to say goose whatever it was that you ingested, drank smoked back in the earlier 2 of the last 3 posts you sent me, please have some more. . I am not 30 or 40 or even 50 years old? I am older, ok? And dare say, I have 'been around'. stop selling and stop schilling, please.

there is politics in EVERY institution;

when I was a summer apprentice for a teamster local in Brooklyn for Key Foods ( I was a 'selector' at their warehouse) , I a) got the job because my buddies dad worked in the front office ( he was non union btw), b) I got offered a position full time at the end of summer based on that c) it was ahead of minorities too, black and Puerto Rican whom had been apprenticing for months more than I did and were just as good.

I am sure they didn't call it politics did they?

wanna here what went down at my hiring for my present position? I almost didn't get it, though I was MILES ahead in interview skills and job skills as I found about 6 months ago in a moment just between my manager and myself at lunch as by that time he had realized we were each simpatico ala unions etc. .
SAME SHIT, different union, different sector.

 

[daveman]

Not only will they vote, they'll actively work to unseat the GOP Senators in the recall election. This was their Pearl Harbor and like Japan, they awoke a sleeping giant.

.

Do pay attention. We're talking about the annual union cert.

We'll be talking about a heluva lot more a week from today.

Perhaps. But for now, we're talking about the annual union cert. Do pay attention.

Wanna take any bets that the Dems regain control of the Wisconsin Senate on July 12th?

.

I don't really care, myself.