IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

[Shusha]

Also I think people tend to conflate war crimes with genocide.

Or even war with genocide. We agree. But I feel that it is important to be vocal about making that distinction, especially when discussing historically oppressed groups such as the Jewish people.

 

[Failzero]

Hamas in Rafah will die by a Thousand cuts

 

[toomuchtime_]

Hamas must die as both a Military and Political entity. Ordinary Anti-Semitism can be handled in a number of ways.

Greg

I was referring to a claim Hamas as a movement cannot be killed, not that Hamas personnel shouldn't be killed.

 

[Coyote]

Or even war with genocide. We agree. But I feel that it is important to be vocal about making that distinction, especially when discussing historically oppressed groups such as the Jewish people.

I feel it is important to be accurate when throwing certain terms out - or at least state why you feel something is xyz. Genocide, Nazi, Hitler, racist, antisemite, pogrom, concentration camps. These are words with very powerful historic events behind them and real people who suffered. To misuse them diminishes the meaning and devalues their suffering. I also think there is an inherent obligation to explain WHY you use those terms, defend the argument or show how the arguement you are countering meets those terms. Genocide is huge, so are war crimes because they can and have led to a slaughter of people on par with genocide. But the term “war crimes” doesn’t conote the horror that the term genocide does, it is more distant and can convey anything from one person torturing prisoners to an entire state led effort to exterminate a population into submission (Russia/Ukraine for example). So I understand why people us “genocide” in some cases, there isn’t an adequate term to cover it.

 

[Coyote]

I was referring to a claim Hamas as a movement cannot be killed, not that Hamas personnel shouldn't be killed.

If you are going to change a movement, you need to address the conditions that led to it and the culture that feeds it. That can has been kicked down the road for decades.

 

[Lisa558]

If you are going to change a movement, you need to address the conditions that led to it and the culture that feeds it. That can has been kicked down the road for decades.

You can’t change HAMAS. Their hatred of Jews and desire to kill them all is too engrained, as is that of the Palestinians who are in support of October 7th.

 

[toomuchtime_]

If you are going to change a movement, you need to address the conditions that led to it and the culture that feeds it. That can has been kicked down the road for decades.

There is no way to change the movement. As Hamas often says, the condition that gave rise to it is the existence of Israel, and the Palestinians, not just Hamas, are fully defined by their passionate efforts to destroy Israel. That means Israel has no choice but to remain security contol over the territories for the foreseeable future.

 

[Lisa558]

There is no way to change the movement. As Hamas often says, the condition that gave rise to it is the existence of Israel, and the Palestinians, not just Hamas, are fully defined by their passionate efforts to destroy Israel. That means Israel has no choice but to remain security contol over the territories for the foreseeable future.

The alarming thing is that the Democrat president, eager to appease the antisemitic Muslims, is throwing Israel and her Jews under the bus - trying to stop them from completing their mission to destroy HAMAS.

He has sided with the Muslims who carried out the most barbaric, savage massacre against in my lifetime - and the worst since the Holocaust.

The Democrats are the antisemite party.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The alarming thing is that the Democrat president, eager to appease the antisemitic Muslims, is throwing Israel and her Jews under the bus - trying to stop them from completing their mission to destroy HAMAS.

He has sided with the Muslims who carried out the most barbaric, savage massacre against in my lifetime - and the worst since the Holocaust.

The Democrats are the antisemite party.

Throughout his political career, Biden has been known as an unprincipled, opportunistic politician who will embrace or reject any position according to the polls. We all know Biden has not frozen the shipment of kits to convert dumb bombs to smart bombs because of concerns over Rafah but because of concerns over Michigan, which analysts say he must win if he is to be reelected.

Since the Michigan primary, Biden has changed the US position from supporting the destruction of Hamas and praising Israel's conduct in the war to berating Israel at every opportunity and blatantly supporting leaving Hamas in power in Gaza and is now leading the propaganda war against Israel. We haven't heard an honest statement from anyone in the Biden administration since the Michigan primary.

The weapons Biden s withholding will not produce any shortages for Israel since Israel manufactures similar items, but I have no doubt Biden has sent Burns to Israel to threaten to sharply turn against Israel at the UN and elsewhere.

 

[Failzero]

1

The alarming thing is that the Democrat president, eager to appease the antisemitic Muslims, is throwing Israel and her Jews under the bus - trying to stop them from completing their mission to destroy HAMAS.

He has sided with the Muslims who carried out the most barbaric, savage massacre against in my lifetime - and the worst since the Holocaust.

The Democrats are the antisemite party.

1959 all over again ?

 

[Lisa558]

1

1959 all over again ?

What happened in 1959, other than the Egyptians giving all Jews 24- hour notice to leave the country, forcing them to abandon their property and sign documents turning it all over to Muslims?

 

[Failzero]

What happened in 1959, other than the Egyptians giving all Jews 24- hour notice to leave the country, forcing them to abandon their property and sign documents turning it all over to Muslims?

In1959 the Democrat Party was rife with Kluxers still ( Like the pre war era )

 

[Lisa558]

In1959 the Democrat Party was rife with Kluxers still ( Like the pre war era )

It was? I didn‘t know that.

Now, the Democrat Party is the one that is behind special favoritism to blacks while simultaneously demonizing Jews.

 

[Failzero]

It was? I didn‘t know that.

Now, the Democrat Party is the one that is behind special favoritism to blacks while simultaneously demonizing Jews.

The Pro Minority Zeitgeist of Today was spearheaded by Far Left Democrats starting around 1970 and-reaching a peak in late 90s that has not abated

 

[Coyote]

Well, yes. That is exactly what they should do. The question on the table is if they want to do it. I'd guess no.

I am going to take exception to this particular argument. I am wondering if this is a standard uniquely applied to Gaza?

We can say they should do this because most of us talk from a position of privilege. I have a home, clean drinking water, food in the fridge, access to good medical care. I don’t worry that my house could be bombed without warning, or that I might come home and find my children have been killed or my husband missing. My government is accountable, it isn’t going to kill or torture me, or “disappear” members of my family for speaking out. We have a system of laws that protect our rights and we can choose our leaders. I, personally have never been in a situation where those things don’t exist.

So it is easy to SAY what people in far worse situations should do when we aren’t there and our families aren’t at any risk. It is well documented what Hamas does to its own people, I could certainly post more links if needed.

If you, your elderly parents, and your young children were living next to a school where Hamas stored weapons…what would you do? You can’t leave Gaza. There is no place safe to stick your family, so what specifically would you do?

 

[Failzero]

Use

I am going to take exception to this particular argument. I am wondering if this is a standard uniquely applied to Gaza?

We can say they should do this because most of us talk from a position of privilege. I have a home, clean drinking water, food in the fridge, access to good medical care. I don’t worry that my house could be bombed without warning, or that I might come home and find my children have been killed or my husband missing. My government is accountable, it isn’t going to kill or torture me, or “disappear” members of my family for speaking out. We have a system of laws that protect our rights and we can choose our leaders. I, personally have never been in a situation where those things don’t exist.

So it is easy to SAY what people in far worse situations should do when we aren’t there and our families aren’t at any risk. It is well documented what Hamas does to its own people, I could certainly post more links if needed.

If you, your elderly parents, and your young children were living next to a school where Hamas stored weapons…what would you do? You can’t leave Gaza. There is no place safe to stick your family, so what specifically would you do?

use Savings from all the $$$ That flowed into Gaza for last 18 years to immigrate to Cyprus or Turkey or Macao or Singapore

 

[Coyote]

….

Use

use Savings from all the $$$ That flowed into Gaza for last 18 years to immigrate to Cyprus or Turkey or Macao or Singapore

I’m sure Hamas leadership has all that safely banked away in foreign accounts. Thanks for a non-answer to the average Palestinian.

 

[Coyote]

There is no way to change the movement. As Hamas often says, the condition that gave rise to it is the existence of Israel, and the Palestinians, not just Hamas, are fully defined by their passionate efforts to destroy Israel. That means Israel has no choice but to remain security contol over the territories for the foreseeable future.

The movement (Hamas) exists and maintains power because of events and actions both past and present that created the conditions we see today. If you change the conditions that support the movement, the movement will eventually change or be diminished. It wouldn’t be the first time a terrorist group turned from violence to governance either (justsaying). Changing the conditions could have reduced support. Israel’s own policies strengthened it in Gaza while simultaneously weakening the PA that would have been a more moderate counter.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The movement (Hamas) exists and maintains power because of events and actions both past and present that created the conditions we see today. If you change the conditions that support the movement, the movement will eventually change or be diminished. It wouldn’t be the first time a terrorist group turned from violence to governance either (justsaying). Changing the conditions could have reduced support. Israel’s own policies strengthened it in Gaza while simultaneously weakening the PA that would have been a more moderate counter.

Complete bullshit. The cause of Arab, now mostly Palestinian, terrorism since 1920 right down to today is the existence of Jews in Palestine and later the existence of Israel. The terrorists tell you that all the time, and you are either to dense to hear it or too dishonest to acknowledge it.

The only difference between Hamas and Fatah is that since Sharon broke the back of the second intifada and Israel maintained security control over the West Bank Fatah has been unable to arm itself sufficiently to launch a major attack, and once Israel destroys Hamas and establishes security control over Gaza, there will be no more major attacks from Gaza.

 

[Shusha]

I am going to take exception to this particular argument. I am wondering if this is a standard uniquely applied to Gaza?

I rather think it is, but not in the way you are imagining.

The people of Gaza are actually capable. The resources, and co-ordination, and scale required to build the infrastructure of "resistance" as demonstrated in this war: the smuggling tunnels, the escape tunnels, the protection tunnels, the hostage network, the intelligence, the number of weapons, the military tactics, the invasion details, the funding are not a shoddy or half-assed effort. This is serious intent and execution.

The people of Gaza are believed not to be capable. Ask yourself why that is.

We can say they should do this because most of us talk from a position of privilege. I have a home, clean drinking water, food in the fridge, access to good medical care. I don’t worry that my house could be bombed without warning, or that I might come home and find my children have been killed or my husband missing. My government is accountable, it isn’t going to kill or torture me, or “disappear” members of my family for speaking out. We have a system of laws that protect our rights and we can choose our leaders. I, personally have never been in a situation where those things don’t exist.

So it is easy to SAY what people in far worse situations should do when we aren’t there and our families aren’t at any risk. It is well documented what Hamas does to its own people, I could certainly post more links if needed.

If you, your elderly parents, and your young children were living next to a school where Hamas stored weapons…what would you do? You can’t leave Gaza. There is no place safe to stick your family, so what specifically would you do?

Well, no one can truly know what they would do faced with this sort of situation. But I have moral clarity about where I stand vis a vis the "lack of privilege" which would force one to participate in atrocities and war crimes. And I can't imagine a situation where that moral clarity would sway.

If my husband/father/uncle/son invaded the US and brought home a kidnapped, abused, raped, woman and her two small children and he asked me to help guard them and to cook them meals and make sure they had water and the occasional shower I would abso-fucking-lutely do whatever it took to keep them safe until I could get them home. I'd like to think I'd be smart about it and get us all out alive. I am probably over-estimating my abilities, but certainly not my moral clarity.

But you are missing the "do they want to" aspect of my comment. You seem to believe that the people of Gaza really do want to overthrow their government, remove terrorist factions, abandon "resistance", collaborate with Israel, choose water over weapons. Sadly, the people of Gaza are just incapable of doing it.

I think they are fully capable of doing it. I just don't think they want to.